Basic Geometry question:
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From: Dwight Beers on 20 Jun 2010 17:07 On 06/20/2010 01:58 PM, Mart van de Wege wrote: > Dwight Beers<hdbeers(a)gmail.com> writes: > >> On 06/20/2010 10:26 AM, Winston Smith, American Patriot wrote: >>> "HD(noSpam)Beers(a)gmail.com"<hdbeers(a)gmail.com> wrote in rec.sport.soccer: >>> >>>> How can a ball reach an Italian player (not a goalkeeper) before it >>>> reaches a Kiwi (read USA's D team) player and be a violation of the >>>> offsides rule? >>> >>> Law 11 states if the offensive player has his head, body or feet beyond the >>> line of the ball AND the line of the second last opponent, and the player >>> is active in the play of the ball---touches ball, blocks or challenges an >>> opponent, or is instrumental in getting the ball to the goal---then he is >>> in the offsides position. >>> >>> I think that is the simple definition. Now see if it applies to Smeltz. >>> >>> >>> >> Clearly, Chiellini (or whoever it was) was between Smeltz and any >> point on the goal line--and just as clearly the ball came off the >> defender, before it was touched by Smeltz. > > If the ball comes off a defender, then it is a matter of 'was the > attacker interfering with play?' > > According to FIFA's official presentation, the answer is yes if the > attacker was in an offside position before the deflection. Although the > rules talk of a rebound. Is a forward deflection off a defender still a > rebound? I'd say yes. > > Which makes this a hard call. Smeltz was not offside at the moment of > the free kick. But was he in an offside position able to interfere with > play when the ball deflected off Cannavaro's thigh? If he was debatedly > level with Cannavaro it would not have been offside. And remember that > in case of doubt the attacker gets the advantage. > > Someone has a link to a slow-motion replay? > > Mart The point I am struggling to make here is that the defender in this case was always between the goal line and Smeltz, ergo there cannot even be a theoretical offside. Even if the ball had come directly to Smeltz and he had volleyed it into the goal there would have been a defender AND a goalkeeper between his position and the goal.
From: Dwight Beers on 20 Jun 2010 17:13 On 06/20/2010 02:07 PM, KaiserD2(a)gmail.com wrote: > On Sun, 20 Jun 2010 10:16:49 -0700 (PDT), "HD(noSpam)Beers(a)gmail.com" > <hdbeers(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> How can a ball reach an Italian player (not a goalkeeper) before it >> reaches a Kiwi (read USA's D team) player and be a violation of the >> offsides rule? > > There's nothing wrong with your geometry--the problem is your > understanding of the rule. Keep in mind that the key moment isn't > when the player behind the next-to-last defender touches the ball, > it's the moment when a teammate strikes it towards him. If he's > behind all the defenders but one (including the goalkeeper) at that > moment, offside will be signalled when the ball reaches him, whether > it touched anyone else on the way or not. If he HAS two defenders > between him and the goal line when the ball is struck, he's free to > receive it under any circumstances, provided another TEAMMATE doesn't > touch it when he's in an offside position. Clear? > > DK It appars that you are still thinking of the endline, whereas I am talking about the GOAL line!! The defender was always between Smeltz and that line. > > I still haven't seen this infamous goal but one poster suggested that > indeed the NZ player was completely onside when the free kick was > taken in which case the goal is perfectly valid. A touch by an > opponent can't put you offside.
From: Mart van de Wege on 20 Jun 2010 17:19 Dwight Beers <hdbeers(a)gmail.com> writes: > On 06/20/2010 01:58 PM, Mart van de Wege wrote: >> Dwight Beers<hdbeers(a)gmail.com> writes: >> >>> On 06/20/2010 10:26 AM, Winston Smith, American Patriot wrote: >>>> "HD(noSpam)Beers(a)gmail.com"<hdbeers(a)gmail.com> wrote in rec.sport.soccer: >>>> >>>>> How can a ball reach an Italian player (not a goalkeeper) before it >>>>> reaches a Kiwi (read USA's D team) player and be a violation of the >>>>> offsides rule? >>>> >>>> Law 11 states if the offensive player has his head, body or feet beyond the >>>> line of the ball AND the line of the second last opponent, and the player >>>> is active in the play of the ball---touches ball, blocks or challenges an >>>> opponent, or is instrumental in getting the ball to the goal---then he is >>>> in the offsides position. >>>> >>>> I think that is the simple definition. Now see if it applies to Smeltz. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Clearly, Chiellini (or whoever it was) was between Smeltz and any >>> point on the goal line--and just as clearly the ball came off the >>> defender, before it was touched by Smeltz. >> >> If the ball comes off a defender, then it is a matter of 'was the >> attacker interfering with play?' >> >> According to FIFA's official presentation, the answer is yes if the >> attacker was in an offside position before the deflection. Although the >> rules talk of a rebound. Is a forward deflection off a defender still a >> rebound? I'd say yes. >> >> Which makes this a hard call. Smeltz was not offside at the moment of >> the free kick. But was he in an offside position able to interfere with >> play when the ball deflected off Cannavaro's thigh? If he was debatedly >> level with Cannavaro it would not have been offside. And remember that >> in case of doubt the attacker gets the advantage. >> >> Someone has a link to a slow-motion replay? >> >> Mart > > The point I am struggling to make here is that the defender in this > case was always between the goal line and Smeltz, Was he? I believe Smeltz was level with Cannavaro the moment the ball deflected off Cannavaro, but if he wasn't, then it *was* offside. Mart -- "We will need a longer wall when the revolution comes." --- AJS, quoting an uncertain source.
From: Mart van de Wege on 20 Jun 2010 17:17 KaiserD2(a)gmail.com writes: > On Sun, 20 Jun 2010 10:16:49 -0700 (PDT), "HD(noSpam)Beers(a)gmail.com" > <hdbeers(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >>How can a ball reach an Italian player (not a goalkeeper) before it >>reaches a Kiwi (read USA's D team) player and be a violation of the >>offsides rule? > > There's nothing wrong with your geometry--the problem is your > understanding of the rule. Keep in mind that the key moment isn't > when the player behind the next-to-last defender touches the ball, > it's the moment when a teammate strikes it towards him. According to FIFA's presentation to the referees and assistant referees, being in an offside position on a rebound off an opposing player also counts as interfering with play. Now, is a ball deflecting forward off a defender still a rebound? And was Smeltz level with Cannavaro when the ball deflected off him? Mart -- "We will need a longer wall when the revolution comes." --- AJS, quoting an uncertain source.
From: Alessandro Riolo on 20 Jun 2010 17:24
On 20 June, 22:19, Mart van de Wege <mvdw...(a)mail.com> wrote: > Was he? There was light between Smeltz and Cannavaro when Cannavaro deflected the ball, but IMVHO it was truly an hard call, I'd not blame the officials on that. -- ale http://ale.riolo.co.uk |