From: Mart van de Wege on
"Winston Smith, American Patriot" <FranzKafka(a)Oceania.WhiteHouse.GOV>
writes:

> Mart van de Wege <mvdwege(a)mail.com> wrote in rec.sport.soccer:
>
>> KaiserD2(a)gmail.com writes:
>>
>>> On Sun, 20 Jun 2010 10:16:49 -0700 (PDT), "HD(noSpam)Beers(a)gmail.com"
>>> <hdbeers(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>How can a ball reach an Italian player (not a goalkeeper) before it
>>>>reaches a Kiwi (read USA's D team) player and be a violation of the
>>>>offsides rule?
>>>
>>> There's nothing wrong with your geometry--the problem is your
>>> understanding of the rule. Keep in mind that the key moment isn't
>>> when the player behind the next-to-last defender touches the ball,
>>> it's the moment when a teammate strikes it towards him.
>>
>> According to FIFA's presentation to the referees and assistant referees,
>> being in an offside position on a rebound off an opposing player also
>> counts as interfering with play.
>
> But the player must be truly interfering with the ball or opponent.
> Smeltz could be standing at the sideline far off from the goal but in the
> offside position watching all the action in front of the goal, and calling
> offside would be wrong. But you know that, I am sure.
>
Well yes. No need to belabour the obvious, right?

Mart

--
"We will need a longer wall when the revolution comes."
--- AJS, quoting an uncertain source.
From: Paul C on
"Winston Smith, American Patriot" <FranzKafka(a)Oceania.WhiteHouse.GOV> wrote
in message news:4c1e4f54$0$23955$afc38c87(a)read01.usenet4all.se...
> "HD(noSpam)Beers(a)gmail.com" <hdbeers(a)gmail.com> wrote in rec.sport.soccer:
>
>> How can a ball reach an Italian player (not a goalkeeper) before it
>> reaches a Kiwi (read USA's D team) player and be a violation of the
>> offsides rule?
>
> Law 11 states if the offensive player has his head, body or feet beyond
> the
> line of the ball AND the line of the second last opponent, and the player
> is active in the play of the ball---touches ball, blocks or challenges an
> opponent, or is instrumental in getting the ball to the goal---then he is
> in the offsides position.
>
> I think that is the simple definition. Now see if it applies to Smeltz.


I've just watched a (poor) recording of the NZ goal.

Smeltz was clearly onside when the free kick was taken. The issue is whether
a defender or a forward headed on the ball, and the recording I am watching
is not clear. If it was the defender then it is as if no one has touched
the ball, since offside depends on where you were when the ball was last
played by a team mate. It would therefore be a goal. If it was a team mate
who headed on the ball then Smeltz was offside so it would be no goal.

So who did head on the ball to Smeltz?

From: Paul C on
"Winston Smith, American Patriot" <FranzKafka(a)Oceania.WhiteHouse.GOV> wrote
in message news:4c1e4f54$0$23955$afc38c87(a)read01.usenet4all.se...
> "HD(noSpam)Beers(a)gmail.com" <hdbeers(a)gmail.com> wrote in rec.sport.soccer:
>
>> How can a ball reach an Italian player (not a goalkeeper) before it
>> reaches a Kiwi (read USA's D team) player and be a violation of the
>> offsides rule?
>
> Law 11 states if the offensive player has his head, body or feet beyond
> the
> line of the ball AND the line of the second last opponent, and the player
> is active in the play of the ball---touches ball, blocks or challenges an
> opponent, or is instrumental in getting the ball to the goal---then he is
> in the offsides position.
>
> I think that is the simple definition. Now see if it applies to Smeltz.



When the free kick was taken, Smeltz was onside.

If it was the Italian who headed the ball, then this has no effect since
offside relates to when the ball was last played by a team mate (the free
kick taker). So if it was the Italian who headed it was a goal.

If a NZ player headed the ball Smeltz was offside at that moment. No goal.

So who did head the ball? It seems to me it was the Italian.

From: Abubakr on
On Jun 21, 3:36 am, "Paul C" <p...(a)thersgb.net> wrote:
> "Winston Smith, American Patriot" <FranzKa...(a)Oceania.WhiteHouse.GOV> wrote
> in messagenews:4c1e4f54$0$23955$afc38c87(a)read01.usenet4all.se...
>
> > "HD(noSpam)Be...(a)gmail.com" <hdbe...(a)gmail.com> wrote in rec.sport.soccer:
>
> >> How can a ball reach an Italian player (not a goalkeeper) before it
> >> reaches a Kiwi (read USA's D team) player and be a violation of the
> >> offsides rule?
>
> > Law 11 states if the offensive player has his head, body or feet beyond
> > the
> > line of the ball AND the line of the second last opponent, and the player
> > is active in the play of the ball---touches ball, blocks or challenges an
> > opponent, or is instrumental in getting the ball to the goal---then he is
> > in the offsides position.
>
> > I think that is the simple definition.  Now see if it applies to Smeltz.
>
> I've just watched a (poor) recording of the NZ goal.
>
> Smeltz was clearly onside when the free kick was taken. The issue is whether
> a defender or a forward headed on the ball, and the recording I am watching
> is not clear.  If it was the defender then it is as if no one has touched
> the ball, since offside depends on where you were when the ball was last
> played by a team mate. It would therefore be a goal. If it was a team mate
> who headed on the ball then Smeltz was offside so it would be no goal.
>
> So who did head on the ball to Smeltz?

I've watched all the available angles (4 or 5 in total) about 20 times
now and still can't see for sure who heads the ball, if anyone does in
fact.
From: HASM on
Mart van de Wege <mvdwege(a)mail.com> writes:

> Which makes this a hard call. Smeltz was not offside at the moment of
> the free kick. But was he in an offside position able to interfere with
> play when the ball deflected off Cannavaro's thigh? If he was debatedly
> level with Cannavaro it would not have been offside. And remember that
> in case of doubt the attacker gets the advantage.

If we was not offside at the moment of the free kick, and no other teammate
player touches the ball before him, he can never be offside. The ball can
deflect several times off as many defenders as you want, and he will never
be offside. If a defender (in the opinion of the referee) plays the ball
(not a deflection) then he can never be deemed in an offside position until
one of his teammates plays or deflects the ball.

One can only be deemed in an offside position at the moment the ball is
played or touched by a teammate, Where he moves after that and ends up
playing the ball is totally irrelevant, if he was not in an offside
position at that time. If another teammate plays the ball, where he was
when the previous touch by a teammate is irrelevant.

Quite simple, though sometimes impossible to judge in real time.

-- HASM

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