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From: lescor on 1 Jul 2010 03:09


"Mentalguy2k8" <Mentalguy2k8(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
news:M2HWn.180493$eS7.127727(a)newsfe25.ams2...
>
> "lescor" <lescorbett(a)btinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:TcSdnROGcrUOtrbRnZ2dnUVZ8rqdnZ2d(a)bt.com...
>>
>>
>> "bofh" <lancj2(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:d534e6cf-c9d7-4acf-a6ef-088a4e2046f6(a)t10g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
>>> On 30 June, 06:40, "Boris Punk" <khg...(a)hmjggg.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>> We sign a manager based on a decent run in the UEFA cup with an average
>>>> team. Yes he's got Euro connections but I hope these directors know
>>>> what
>>>> they're doing.
>>
>>>
>>> They don't know what they are doing. Absolutely not. Proven
>>
>>
>> He is very likely to bring stability and common sense to the club, plus a
>> far
>> better degree of man management than for the past few years.
>>
>> The ability to do well with an " average team" might be just what is
>> needed
>> because this is what Rafa has left him with after 6 years and millions
>> wasted.
>> If the transfer market takes one or two key players away the squad will
>> hardly
>> reach" average " status and he will face a massive task to get them there
>> unless
>> the yanks pass a lot of the received money back to him.
>>
>> How well he will do is guesswork, but considering all things, I think
>> that his
>> appointment is a sensible one and certainly far more sensible than the
>> last contract they gave Rafa.
>
> And you hear nothing bad said about him by anyone he's ever coached.
> Which, I suspect, will be the key factor in whether we keep our best
> players or not. My opinion is that he's been brought in to keep things
> steady until the club is sold and money becomes available. He's "safe".
> He's never going to set the Premiership alight but he's not going to get
> us relegated, plus he's more likely to persuade the players not to leave
> than a lot of other managers. *Some* people still don't seem to understand
> the state our club is in, and the choices that had to be made, probably
> the same people who'll be whining if we don't finish 4th or better next
> season.


I agree. His attraction to the board was probably his soundness, practical
common
sense and closeness to his players. Add to this a decent concept of buying
with the
main idea of TEAM building in mind rather than Rafa's 'off the peg and
hope they
fit in policy', and we might ask what better attributes can a manager have?

I am not much into this " world class" prefix used so readily about coaches
and
players, particularly when we've just had examples of both returning home
with
their tails between their legs . Certainly true that some managers are more
gifted
than others, but those attributes ,above, were just what pushed Jose to the
fore
when he used them to take a non fancied club to the CL title, after which he
has
been blessed with homes where he is able to spend almost as he wishes.

I suggest that a vital sound football wisdom, which is then supported by a
decent
amount of cash, will most often be enough to sustain reasonable
success, which is all that any club can realistically hope for. And yet we
see fans
craving for a big name, a proven " world class" manager as if they were
all born
in that elite position. The fact is that they weren't. Sir Alex, Jose,
Wenger and just
about every other top manager got there through the ranks. So why not
Hodgson
who already has more experience than most?

He faces the biggest task of any EPL manager next term and might even find
himself without three or four of the clubs best players. Even so, Hodgson
will soon have a side playing to whatever strengths he is left with, and
players
who once again appear to enjoy what they are doing.

Just get the club sold to rich new owners and Pool fans might be looking
forward to a bright new future in a season or two, and it would be no
surprise to me if Hodgson was still leading it.


LC

































From: Google Beta User on 1 Jul 2010 09:50
On Jul 1, 3:09 am, "lescor" <lescorb...(a)btinternet.com> wrote:

> He faces the biggest task of any EPL  manager next term and might even find
> himself without three or four of the clubs best players.  Even so, Hodgson
> will soon have a side playing to whatever strengths he is left with, and
> players
> who once again appear to enjoy what they are doing.

Your thoughts on the below quoted thoughts?

"some managers are great at getting smaller clubs to punch above their
weight, but then find the fans at bigger clubs do not accept their
methods, or they simply don’t work with better players. A weight of
expectation can drag anyone down."

(cont.)

"Sam Allardyce did remarkably well at Bolton, but had a horrible time
at Newcastle. Mike Walker saw Norwich punch way above their weight in
the early Premier League years; but at Everton his team finished well
below their expected league position. Gerry Francis worked miracles at
QPR; yet he failed at Spurs. Alan Curbishley did a brilliant job at
Charlton; at West Ham he made little impact. Joe Kinnear made
Wimbledon a team to fear, and, with the help of a few others,
Newcastle a team to play in the Championship. Mark Hughes took
Blackburn to well above where they should have been; Man City well
below."

(cont.)

"I can find very few examples of managers who take that
overachievement to bigger clubs and even ‘break even’ with
expectations. Martin O’Neill worked wonders with Leicester, but
landlocked by a glass ceiling as Aston Villa, merely keeps them where
they ‘should’ be."
From: Pope Pompous XVIII on 1 Jul 2010 10:03
On Thu, 01 Jul 2010 06:50:24 -0700, Google Beta User wrote:

> On Jul 1, 3:09 am, "lescor" <lescorb...(a)btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> He faces the biggest task of any EPL  manager next term and might even
>> find himself without three or four of the clubs best players.  Even so,
>> Hodgson will soon have a side playing to whatever strengths he is left
>> with, and players
>> who once again appear to enjoy what they are doing.
>
> Your thoughts on the below quoted thoughts?
>
> "some managers are great at getting smaller clubs to punch above their
> weight, but then find the fans at bigger clubs do not accept their
> methods, or they simply don't work with better players. A weight of
> expectation can drag anyone down."
>
> (cont.)
>
> "Sam Allardyce did remarkably well at Bolton, but had a horrible time at
> Newcastle. Mike Walker saw Norwich punch way above their weight in the
> early Premier League years; but at Everton his team finished well below
> their expected league position. Gerry Francis worked miracles at QPR;
> yet he failed at Spurs. Alan Curbishley did a brilliant job at Charlton;
> at West Ham he made little impact. Joe Kinnear made Wimbledon a team to
> fear, and, with the help of a few others, Newcastle a team to play in
> the Championship. Mark Hughes took Blackburn to well above where they
> should have been; Man City well below."
>
> (cont.)
>
> "I can find very few examples of managers who take that overachievement
> to bigger clubs and even 'break even' with expectations. Martin O'Neill
> worked wonders with Leicester, but landlocked by a glass ceiling as
> Aston Villa, merely keeps them where they 'should' be."


And Rafa worked miracles at Anfield, taking Liverpool from 4th to 7th in
just six years, at a cost of 240 million.

But it won't do to mention that, will it. Not forgetting how he was
hamstrung by the two Americans. He even had to sell his own car just to
get the money together for the Aquilani transfer.

--
+ His Holiness Pope Pompous XVIII

I hate England
From: lescor on 2 Jul 2010 07:48


"Google Beta User" <wanyikuli(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
news:99209918-6468-4f03-9883-66b707d6bd1e(a)i31g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 1, 3:09 am, "lescor" <lescorb...(a)btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> He faces the biggest task of any EPL manager next term and might even
>> find
>> himself without three or four of the clubs best players. Even so,
>> Hodgson
>> will soon have a side playing to whatever strengths he is left with, and
>> players
>> who once again appear to enjoy what they are doing.
>
> Your thoughts on the below quoted thoughts?
>
> "some managers are great at getting smaller clubs to punch above their
> weight, but then find the fans at bigger clubs do not accept their
> methods, or they simply don�t work with better players. A weight of
> expectation can drag anyone down."
>
> (cont.)
>
> "Sam Allardyce did remarkably well at Bolton, but had a horrible time
> at Newcastle. Mike Walker saw Norwich punch way above their weight in
> the early Premier League years; but at Everton his team finished well
> below their expected league position. Gerry Francis worked miracles at
> QPR; yet he failed at Spurs. Alan Curbishley did a brilliant job at
> Charlton; at West Ham he made little impact. Joe Kinnear made
> Wimbledon a team to fear, and, with the help of a few others,
> Newcastle a team to play in the Championship. Mark Hughes took
> Blackburn to well above where they should have been; Man City well
> below."
>
> (cont.)
>
> "I can find very few examples of managers who take that
> overachievement to bigger clubs and even �break even� with
> expectations. Martin O�Neill worked wonders with Leicester, but
> landlocked by a glass ceiling as Aston Villa, merely keeps them where
> they �should� be."


Mainly all true, but Hughes was probably judged prematurely and
O'Neill has his lot in just about the position we might expect, as does
Moyes.
I have never suggested that selecting a manager is just a matter of
randomly picking from those who have done well, or better than expected,
at other clubs, but what better place to start looking, rather than amongst
those handful of elite managers with, apparently, established reputations
of which Rafa was one? Judging by results, even Euro league titles, rather
than
judging the man, is often the reason for poor appointments even though they
are often popular with the result driven fans.

Looking for recent success stories of successful Prem managers plucked from
the lower rank will, I agree, not provide many examples if you use EPL
titles
or Cups as a criteria. But how could they when for so many years only a few
have had the financial clout to keep ahead of the others, and of these, two
have
long standing successful managers? Wenger was a manager of very little
experience but his football philosophy attracted him to the board. Jose
might
have been a one hit wonder but the Russian was convinced that he had talent.
Fergie had some success with a minor Scottish side and, despite early fan
reactions, the board stood by him to prove that they had chosen a gem.

Apart from Chelsea, who seem able to sustain reasonable success whoever
is in charge ( even a novice like Grant), there have been few managerial
changes at the top recently so no upward mover to prove his worth.

The examples you give above are more like unsuccessful sideways moves.
(Charlton to West Ham and Leicester to Villa ) rather than moves to clubs
with far greater expectations. The only manager to make a move of that
type until recently was Benitez. There are few vacancies. Far more if you
look
back a few years.

I agree that promoted managers might just find the new job too much
for them but it might not always be because of lack of talent. New owners,
new fans, greater expectations and finance can all play a part and the
boards
have to make sound choices. Hodgson is lucky that expectations will not be
so great ( at least they shouldn't be) so he might have time to be
judged. He does not have the cash Rafa was given who, despite his
complaints of being starved, was able to go out and get Torres, for a club
record fee, as well as Babel, Benayoun, Leiva, Vorodin, plus a couple of
others,
over a short early period under the new owners.

Finishing 7th is hardly a disaster, but seems so owing to the large amount
of cash Rafa had to spend over his six seasons. Whether or not any of those
other Prem managers you listed would finished higher is a matter of
opinion,
but I doubt if any would show worse man management and I am positive
that none would have blown most of his annual budget on a non-proven
crippled player.

The unavoidable fact is that all the most successful managers were once
lesser lights, unproven at the top level. And yet we see this desire from
fans
to get a "name" rather than a manager who has shown sound sense.

I am a betting man, and therefore have a deep respect for probability.
I doubt if the four most profit making high street chain shops have the
four very best bosses running them or that nobody in the wings could
not do an equal or even better job. I don't think that the major oil
drilling international companies are headed by only the few who can do
the job, or that the four best fish and chip shops in Lancashire have,
by some amazing coincidence, the only four managers in the country to
make them so.

There are always talents waiting. It's just a matter of looking in the
right
place and choosing well.


LC































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