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From: Frank Lee on 23 Jan 2010 22:53 <REDDEVIL6(a)nospam.net> wrote in message news:kp8nl5d8r8pto7e2pq1943iuvpsukpk32b(a)4ax.com... > On Sat, 23 Jan 2010 19:32:08 -0500, "Ren" <XXXXX(a)frontiernet.netXXXXX> > wrote: > >> >>"Lescor" <lescor(a)btinternet.com> wrote in message >>news:DO6dnWjhuuRGccfWnZ2dnUVZ8nmdnZ2d(a)bt.com... >>> >>> >>> "bofh" <lancj2(a)googlemail.com> wrote in message >>> news:2fa03bc6-6f46-423d-8ba4-6b9e29b55dbc(a)r24g2000yqd.googlegroups.com... >>>> On 22 Jan, 23:57, "Frank Lee" <sf...(a)sccsdc.com> wrote: > >>>> >>>> Liverpool are now watching Manchester City, in a stadium built for >>>> them and given to them, > > Manchester City did not have the stadium given to them, in fact they > do they own it. > It was built primarily for the Commonwealth Games? What are you on about?
From: Ren on 23 Jan 2010 23:09 <REDDEVIL6(a)nospam.net> wrote in message news:kp8nl5d8r8pto7e2pq1943iuvpsukpk32b(a)4ax.com... > On Sat, 23 Jan 2010 19:32:08 -0500, "Ren" <XXXXX(a)frontiernet.netXXXXX> > wrote: > >> >>"Lescor" <lescor(a)btinternet.com> wrote in message >>news:DO6dnWjhuuRGccfWnZ2dnUVZ8nmdnZ2d(a)bt.com... >>> >>> >>> "bofh" <lancj2(a)googlemail.com> wrote in message >>> news:2fa03bc6-6f46-423d-8ba4-6b9e29b55dbc(a)r24g2000yqd.googlegroups.com... >>>> On 22 Jan, 23:57, "Frank Lee" <sf...(a)sccsdc.com> wrote: > >>>> >>>> Liverpool are now watching Manchester City, in a stadium built for >>>> them and given to them, > > Manchester City did not have the stadium given to them, in fact they > do they own it. > I never ever mentioned anything about Man City's stadium. Ren
From: Lescor on 24 Jan 2010 07:50 "BOFH" <spamtrap99(a)blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message news:eII6n.81072$uV7.70481(a)newsfe13.ams2... > > "Lescor" <lescor(a)btinternet.com> wrote in message > news:DO6dnWjhuuRGccfWnZ2dnUVZ8nmdnZ2d(a)bt.com... >> >> Right now, when without just 2 of their best squad available, and after 5 >> years of team building, > > > Rafa was but a tiny part of my post, however 8 million pound buys go > wrong - theres quite a few at OT... > > I think the only big signing Rafa got "wrong" was Keane, but as he wanted > Barry anyway, you probably cannot count it. > My logic is that if you give Benitez 200 million in May, to spend in one > go, his 8-10 signings, based on his > track record with these prices, will be nailed on cert Aquilani? Looks like a player with a sharp footballing brain but yet to prove himself in the EPL. A bit accident prone maybe? But replacing a key player with one who would not be match fit until Xmas at the earliest takes a bit of understanding. Fine for a club with plenty of cash available, who buys for the long term to strengthen the squad and bench but hardly sensible for one who are forced to spend wisely and have a gaping creative hole to fill. > Was Jose really that good buying up world players, that most of us would > have got on FIFA 2005 anyway ? > > Benitez took Liverpool to within a breadth of the title last year. He is > more than a match for the other "names" and beats united for fun of late > > I can list the players out this season - it was 6 on Wed - but despite > this - remains just 10 points behind United (G.I.H) - who, without > Rooney...... > > Many more twists yet, many more Maybe so, and have to admit that I have always had a soft spot for the football underdog who is under pressure, even Rafa. I suspect that he will get his 4th place.....a pretty ridiculous ambition in the distant past.... but mainly because the others in contention are still not very convincing. The fact remains that it is a major part of a managers job to have a squad where you can make a reasonable fist of coping with injuries. They all suffer from them, but once injuries become the excuse for failure in a team which has had enough time and cash to make their effect less of a problem you have to look at the manager. The fact is, five first team players out might be a disaster at West Ham, but it shouldn't, by now, be the same at L'pool. True, Benitez took his side closer to winning the title last year and many argue that this shows how good he is. But this brings back that old biased argument that a manager is responsible for a run of good results and decent performances but bad results and rubbish performances have little to do with him. Let's only judge him by the best but never by the worst? Much the same side as last year with one important exception. Should that be so vital? Man U lost their biggest star and had many of their main defenders out for weeks, but today they are back at the top of the pile. Is this due ONLY to past big spending or does it go a bit further than that? LC
From: Lescor on 24 Jan 2010 09:25 "Ren" <XXXXX(a)frontiernet.netXXXXX> wrote in message news:byM6n.2175$z44.825(a)newsfe03.iad... > > "Lescor" <lescor(a)btinternet.com> wrote in message > news:DO6dnWjhuuRGccfWnZ2dnUVZ8nmdnZ2d(a)bt.com... >> >> >> "bofh" <lancj2(a)googlemail.com> wrote in message >> news:2fa03bc6-6f46-423d-8ba4-6b9e29b55dbc(a)r24g2000yqd.googlegroups.com... >>> On 22 Jan, 23:57, "Frank Lee" <sf...(a)sccsdc.com> wrote: >>>> Man U fan but he's got a point >>>> >>> >>> Its all very well but United nearly got Micheal Knighton - no doubt >>> they would have loved him more. >>> >>> I come on and rant here with the rest of you, but its a sad fact I am >>> slowly losing interest in the game more and more. >>> >>> Traditional models are being undermined by money money money. >>> >>> Liverpool are now watching Manchester City, in a stadium built for >>> them and given to them, get ridiculous amounts of money to go and buy >>> an off the shelf team, and no doubt win the league in the next couple >>> of years. Thats what Chelsea did, and the money is there to go out and >>> buy a couple of 40 million replacements as and when needed. >>> >>> Manchester United made good during the last of the traditional years - >>> they were top dogs when the Glazers took over, have a legendary >>> manager, so apart from a vocal few the masses are quite happy to win >>> titles. Now, at the point when their manager is in his twilight years, >>> and the era of the super rich is here, the squad is starting to look >>> past its best (it is, lads, no disrespect) they make noises but are >>> mortgaged up to the hils and clearly dont have the ronaldo money to >>> spend. They look more and more like a one man team. Whats around the >>> corner ? >>> >>> Liverpool. Well Liverpool and the fans need to decide where they sit. >>> I watched the match at City on Wed, saw the ground, saw the squad, and >>> thought yep, they will overtake us eventually in our current state. >>> Spurs have spent over 150 million in one go recently, but not as >>> conviced aabout them, or Villa for that matter. I think their managers >>> are limited (waits for ridicule but stands his ground...) Benitez is >>> streets above them, frankly. >>> >>> So, if we get new owners, and 200 million to spend IN ONE GO then we >>> have the manager to win us the title quite easily - hes the match of >>> Jose and Ancelloti. >>> >>> If we dont get new owners, and we have to get by spending 30 million >>> quid a year, as we have over the last few, then get real and get used >>> to being top of the rest. >>> >>> Of course, its quite feasible that City will take uniteds spot, and >>> 4th place may be a perennial battle between the two "biggest" clubs in >>> the country... >>> >>> There is no turning back though >> >> >> Cannot disagree with much of that, with one outstanding exception. >> Although pretty tired of questioning Rafa's eccentricities for the last >> 5 seasons - and most often in the face of fans excuses who have >> continued to bend over backwards to find sense in the nonsensical - >> the time has come when they have become so obvious that they really >> require no further comment. >> >> I accept that having one large sum to spend in a short time can be more >> efficient than having smaller amounts of the cash in stages, but only if >> a manager is astute enough to spend it well. You might like to compare >> Rafa's pretty hefty spending over his reign with those larger immediate >> cash sums enjoyed by MU, MC and Chelsea and put up the case that >> having it all in one go is the real difference. But is it? >> > > Absolutely it is. Would Robinho signed for Man City if there wasn't a big > money policy available? Not for Mark Hughes he wouldn't. And Robinho has been a fantastic success foir Man City??? You prove my point perfectly. It ain't so much about the cash you have, it's about how well you spend it. Judgment, and how well you manage whatever players you get. Looks like this one will be put out on loan soon. > > What you have to question also is how much money Man City overspent on > some players. At the moment they are talking about top 4 > finishes........not challenging for titles. No argument here. Like a kid in a sweet factory, although I don't think that any of their fans really thought a title challenge was on after the strange early buys of anything that moved and kicked. > You can add Spurs into the above argument as well, lots of money spent but > talk of a top 4 finish, not challenging for the title. Same again, but better spending and a side in trouble just one year ago. > > If however you are already in that top 4 then a big cash injection in one > go should ideally make you a serious contender for the title. It certainly > worked for Chelsea. True, but the same discipline remains. Whatever you buy you have to buy well. Jose spent big, but distained the truly big stars to build the sort of TEAM he wanted. > > Chelsea never regressed under Avram Grant nor did they regress under > Scolari, it was just that Man U were better than them over 38 games. Had > John Terry not missed that penalty i doubt Grant would have been sacked, i > seriously doubt Abramovich' ability to understand how good some of the > other teams are in the premier league. > Manchester United were blessed with having probably the best bunch of > young players coming through their system at the same time than at any > other time, for any football team in the world EVER. You can't win > anything with kids.......well these were football men in kids bodies. They > caused the dominance of Man U........and it took big money to compete > against them, cue big spending Arsenal back in the 90's and early > millenium. > >> Maybe a few of us, given �200m to spend would make a decent job of >> improving the squad. Whether it would make us good managers is >> another matter. If you want to make comparisons which are objective, >> try matching Rafa's club and spending advantages with the vast >> majority of the other EPL clubs, one of them just across the park, who >> get nothing like the cash Rafa has used but who have used it more >> wisely, something they have to do simply to survive. > But why do Everton have to do that.....they have the same gate size. But apparently not the same amount of spare cash over the years. > > But then again Everton aren't the small spenders as you think. Johnson > (8.6m), Fellaini (15m), Yakubu (11.25m), Baines (6m), Yobo (5m), Heitinga > (6.2m), Bilyaletdinov (9m), Saha (7.5m), Distin (5m for a 32yo?????). > > What you should have highlighted perhaps are the bargain signing that > Everton have made. Cahill, Pienaar and Arteta all signed for less than 8m > collectively if i'm correct. That is fantastic buying, seriously fantastic > buying. >> It is hardly disputable that Rafa's spendings are, to put it at its >> best, >> very hit and miss. Isn't it a simple fact Rafa was never going to get >> those �200m windfalls to spend and therefore needed to spend with >> more planning and wisdom rather than make excuses about the >> unlevel playing field? Your opinion that Rafa would be as good as >> these others if given a massive sum to invest is only an assumption. >> Does his erractic record really back it up? The evidence mostly >> suggests otherwise. >> > > Of course it is an assumption but it isn't rocket science to imagine that > given 200m you could get 7 hits and maybe 1-2 misses. But despite that it > is the spending power that allows you to attract the good players as they > know they should be playing along side other good players. True >> The fact remains that his total spending would be the envy of most of >> his rivals in the EPL, and although we could argue the sense of many >> of his individual buys, there are some facts which stand out and many >> doubts arriving from them. Despite the net balance, Rafa has spent >> around �200m since he arrived at the club. Yes, he did have to sell >> to buy, but mainly players not good enough which he had bought before. >> > > I'm not sure i understand the "bought before" bit? Well, they came and went in large numbers. > > I can talk about the likes of Veron, Manucho, Shevchenko etc etc but it > seems to always come down to Rafa's bad buys. Everyone makes bad buys but > you have to look at the serious expectation level of clubs. That is what > it boils down to. > > Sure Rafa is stubborn, so was Mourinho and it got him sacked when he was > being successful. But there is more than just a manager, the scouts who > recommend the players, the coaches and medical staff who advise the > managers. It isn't so easy as black and white Again correct, but there is a point where excuses are not relevant, and that point is at the manager. They can benefit from good luck, suffer from bad luck, but in the end it is down to them. It is the same in any walk of life, not just football. Misfortune or bad luck are not a long term excuse because it is the managers job to foresee them and to cater for them and ease their effect. Any 'manager', in almost full control of a company, who puts the excuse that falling sales are down to the fact that the punters just don't like the stuff we provide is proving their own failure. Unfair? Maybe it is at times, but when a manager is responsible for the skills of everyone who works for him ......in Rafa's case the whole backroom playing staff of scouts, medical men and trainers.......then any shortcomings in them are his alone. Top managers are paid millions to carry this burden, which is the reason we use high standards to judge them by. "The buck stops here" is the only way, although some seem to prefer to judge Rafa's efforts as though he was favourite uncle trying to do a job where he had no previous experience. >> Should a manager who was able, unlike many others, to pay out plenty >> of fees in the �8 - �20m range still be in a position, after 5 years, of >> carrying such a poor in depth squad? Can the buying of close to 80 >> players in that same period be justified? Does carrying one of the >> largest EPL playing staffs make any sense when so many of them >> are poor? >> > > For a poor squad they haven't done bad. > > 1 European cup > 1 FA cup > 2 Club record premier league points > 2 champions league semi's No real need to discuss those again is there? > What other club can boast that with the spending Liverpool have had? Where > are Spurs, Aston Villa, Arsenal and Man City? Spurs and M City are in the early stages after having more cash. although not setting the world alight yet. Arsenal are some way better than L'pool as far as expectations based upon the football they play is concerned. > With 5 years under their belts do you expect them to challenge? Wenger has > had plenty of time.....what has he done these past 5 years? Man City have > already sacked a manager since they started spending and Aston Villa have > much less strength in depth. > >> There are plenty of things to doubt about Rafa's decisions, but judging >> him on this one alone after 5 years hardly backs up your high opinion >> of him. LOL......maybe his series of irrational decisions over the past 5 got in the way of making a fair judgment of his skills. >> Right now, when without just 2 of their best squad available, and after 5 >> years of team building, Liverpool are forced to resort to football more >> suited to a minor league club taking on Arsenal in a cup tie. Hype >> ourselves up and run like buggery. It will work.......on >> occasions....but >> should this club really be in that position? Would they have been under >> a truly GOOD manager? > Two players injured this season....... > > Torres > Gerrard > Johnson > Aquilani (yes we know he was crocked before hand so he probably doesn't > count). > Agger > Riera > Aurelio > Benayoun > Babel > Skrtel > > More than 2 players really. But you don't dispute the type of football they now are forced to play? I don't doubt that all out enthusiasm can pick up some points, but should Liverpool be in need of such hit and hope tactics after Rafa's 5 years? And I did say BEST players right now. I don't include many on your list, including Johnson. I suspect that it is his regular inclusion in that position that has created defensive problems, attractive though his attacking style is for the fans. There are many cliches and half truths talked about in football, but one which I think is absolute is the need for a solid as a rock back four with a fine keeper (one of Rafa's big successes) It is the base of the side...the foundation to build on. i don't think they get this with Johnson at right back, and it shows. LC
From: Ren on 24 Jan 2010 22:50
"Lescor" <lescor(a)btinternet.com> wrote in message > on. > i don't think they get this with Johnson at right back, and it shows. > I don't think it is down to Johnson. Degen is an attacking RB and Insua who has been a good buy from Rafa is an attacking LB. I've said before that i think Liverpool need to adjust if they are using attacking backs. The problem i have Les is that everything comes down to Rafa for you. Wenger is more guilty than Rafa over the past 5 years........look at the record and be objective. Ren |