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From: Lescor on 23 Jan 2010 07:34 "bofh" <lancj2(a)googlemail.com> wrote in message news:2fa03bc6-6f46-423d-8ba4-6b9e29b55dbc(a)r24g2000yqd.googlegroups.com... > On 22 Jan, 23:57, "Frank Lee" <sf...(a)sccsdc.com> wrote: >> Man U fan but he's got a point >> > > Its all very well but United nearly got Micheal Knighton - no doubt > they would have loved him more. > > I come on and rant here with the rest of you, but its a sad fact I am > slowly losing interest in the game more and more. > > Traditional models are being undermined by money money money. > > Liverpool are now watching Manchester City, in a stadium built for > them and given to them, get ridiculous amounts of money to go and buy > an off the shelf team, and no doubt win the league in the next couple > of years. Thats what Chelsea did, and the money is there to go out and > buy a couple of 40 million replacements as and when needed. > > Manchester United made good during the last of the traditional years - > they were top dogs when the Glazers took over, have a legendary > manager, so apart from a vocal few the masses are quite happy to win > titles. Now, at the point when their manager is in his twilight years, > and the era of the super rich is here, the squad is starting to look > past its best (it is, lads, no disrespect) they make noises but are > mortgaged up to the hils and clearly dont have the ronaldo money to > spend. They look more and more like a one man team. Whats around the > corner ? > > Liverpool. Well Liverpool and the fans need to decide where they sit. > I watched the match at City on Wed, saw the ground, saw the squad, and > thought yep, they will overtake us eventually in our current state. > Spurs have spent over 150 million in one go recently, but not as > conviced aabout them, or Villa for that matter. I think their managers > are limited (waits for ridicule but stands his ground...) Benitez is > streets above them, frankly. > > So, if we get new owners, and 200 million to spend IN ONE GO then we > have the manager to win us the title quite easily - hes the match of > Jose and Ancelloti. > > If we dont get new owners, and we have to get by spending 30 million > quid a year, as we have over the last few, then get real and get used > to being top of the rest. > > Of course, its quite feasible that City will take uniteds spot, and > 4th place may be a perennial battle between the two "biggest" clubs in > the country... > > There is no turning back though Cannot disagree with much of that, with one outstanding exception. Although pretty tired of questioning Rafa's eccentricities for the last 5 seasons - and most often in the face of fans excuses who have continued to bend over backwards to find sense in the nonsensical - the time has come when they have become so obvious that they really require no further comment. I accept that having one large sum to spend in a short time can be more efficient than having smaller amounts of the cash in stages, but only if a manager is astute enough to spend it well. You might like to compare Rafa's pretty hefty spending over his reign with those larger immediate cash sums enjoyed by MU, MC and Chelsea and put up the case that having it all in one go is the real difference. But is it? Maybe a few of us, given �200m to spend would make a decent job of improving the squad. Whether it would make us good managers is another matter. If you want to make comparisons which are objective, try matching Rafa's club and spending advantages with the vast majority of the other EPL clubs, one of them just across the park, who get nothing like the cash Rafa has used but who have used it more wisely, something they have to do simply to survive. It is hardly disputable that Rafa's spendings are, to put it at its best, very hit and miss. Isn't it a simple fact Rafa was never going to get those �200m windfalls to spend and therefore needed to spend with more planning and wisdom rather than make excuses about the unlevel playing field? Your opinion that Rafa would be as good as these others if given a massive sum to invest is only an assumption. Does his erractic record really back it up? The evidence mostly suggests otherwise. The fact remains that his total spending would be the envy of most of his rivals in the EPL, and although we could argue the sense of many of his individual buys, there are some facts which stand out and many doubts arriving from them. Despite the net balance, Rafa has spent around �200m since he arrived at the club. Yes, he did have to sell to buy, but mainly players not good enough which he had bought before. Should a manager who was able, unlike many others, to pay out plenty of fees in the �8 - �20m range still be in a position, after 5 years, of carrying such a poor in depth squad? Can the buying of close to 80 players in that same period be justified? Does carrying one of the largest EPL playing staffs make any sense when so many of them are poor? There are plenty of things to doubt about Rafa's decisions, but judging him on this one alone after 5 years hardly backs up your high opinion of him. Right now, when without just 2 of their best squad available, and after 5 years of team building, Liverpool are forced to resort to football more suited to a minor league club taking on Arsenal in a cup tie. Hype ourselves up and run like buggery. It will work.......on occasions....but should this club really be in that position? Would they have been under a truly GOOD manager? LC
From: Ren on 23 Jan 2010 13:27 "Frank Lee" <sfsdf(a)sccsdc.com> wrote in message news:o7w6n.72814$9A6.7668(a)newsfe07.ams2... > > "Ren" <XXXXX(a)frontiernet.netXXXXX> wrote in message > news:_%t6n.1740$Fe4.1075(a)newsfe21.iad... >> >> "Frank Lee" <sfsdf(a)sccsdc.com> wrote in message >> news:T8t6n.63$IF3.34(a)newsfe01.ams2... >>> >>> "Ren" <XXXXX(a)frontiernet.netXXXXX> wrote in message >>> news:_3t6n.668$p66.101(a)newsfe09.iad... >>>> >>>> "Frank Lee" <sfsdf(a)sccsdc.com> wrote in message >>>> news:4Yq6n.60176$zV2.41589(a)newsfe28.ams2... >>>>> Man U fan but he's got a point >>>>> >>>>> The Barca model is the best one vs the current situation >imo. >>>> >>>> You need to take a much closer look then. If corruption is part of your >>>> plan then so be it. >>>> >>> >>> The Barca model is corrupt? All I know of it is that the fans have a say >>> in what happens with the club? >> >> Yes the Barca fans do have a say........the richer fans have a bigger >> say. See where i'm coming from? >> >> Ren >> > > Capitalist ideological thought perhaps? ;) > > Fan of football, not politics. Unfortunately politics and football go hand in hand in Spain. Ren
From: BOFH on 23 Jan 2010 15:09 "Lescor" <lescor(a)btinternet.com> wrote in message news:DO6dnWjhuuRGccfWnZ2dnUVZ8nmdnZ2d(a)bt.com... > > Right now, when without just 2 of their best squad available, and after 5 > years of team building, > Rafa was but a tiny part of my post, however 8 million pound buys go wrong - theres quite a few at OT... I think the only big signing Rafa got "wrong" was Keane, but as he wanted Barry anyway, you probably cannot count it. My logic is that if you give Benitez 200 million in May, to spend in one go, his 8-10 signings, based on his track record with these prices, will be nailed on certs. Was Jose really that good buying up world players, that most of us would have got on FIFA 2005 anyway ? Benitez took Liverpool to within a breadth of the title last year. He is more than a match for the other "names" and beats united for fun of late I can list the players out this season - it was 6 on Wed - but despite this - remains just 10 points behind United (G.I.H) - who, without Rooney...... Many more twists yet, many more
From: Ren on 23 Jan 2010 19:32 "Lescor" <lescor(a)btinternet.com> wrote in message news:DO6dnWjhuuRGccfWnZ2dnUVZ8nmdnZ2d(a)bt.com... > > > "bofh" <lancj2(a)googlemail.com> wrote in message > news:2fa03bc6-6f46-423d-8ba4-6b9e29b55dbc(a)r24g2000yqd.googlegroups.com... >> On 22 Jan, 23:57, "Frank Lee" <sf...(a)sccsdc.com> wrote: >>> Man U fan but he's got a point >>> >> >> Its all very well but United nearly got Micheal Knighton - no doubt >> they would have loved him more. >> >> I come on and rant here with the rest of you, but its a sad fact I am >> slowly losing interest in the game more and more. >> >> Traditional models are being undermined by money money money. >> >> Liverpool are now watching Manchester City, in a stadium built for >> them and given to them, get ridiculous amounts of money to go and buy >> an off the shelf team, and no doubt win the league in the next couple >> of years. Thats what Chelsea did, and the money is there to go out and >> buy a couple of 40 million replacements as and when needed. >> >> Manchester United made good during the last of the traditional years - >> they were top dogs when the Glazers took over, have a legendary >> manager, so apart from a vocal few the masses are quite happy to win >> titles. Now, at the point when their manager is in his twilight years, >> and the era of the super rich is here, the squad is starting to look >> past its best (it is, lads, no disrespect) they make noises but are >> mortgaged up to the hils and clearly dont have the ronaldo money to >> spend. They look more and more like a one man team. Whats around the >> corner ? >> >> Liverpool. Well Liverpool and the fans need to decide where they sit. >> I watched the match at City on Wed, saw the ground, saw the squad, and >> thought yep, they will overtake us eventually in our current state. >> Spurs have spent over 150 million in one go recently, but not as >> conviced aabout them, or Villa for that matter. I think their managers >> are limited (waits for ridicule but stands his ground...) Benitez is >> streets above them, frankly. >> >> So, if we get new owners, and 200 million to spend IN ONE GO then we >> have the manager to win us the title quite easily - hes the match of >> Jose and Ancelloti. >> >> If we dont get new owners, and we have to get by spending 30 million >> quid a year, as we have over the last few, then get real and get used >> to being top of the rest. >> >> Of course, its quite feasible that City will take uniteds spot, and >> 4th place may be a perennial battle between the two "biggest" clubs in >> the country... >> >> There is no turning back though > > > Cannot disagree with much of that, with one outstanding exception. > Although pretty tired of questioning Rafa's eccentricities for the last > 5 seasons - and most often in the face of fans excuses who have > continued to bend over backwards to find sense in the nonsensical - > the time has come when they have become so obvious that they really > require no further comment. > > I accept that having one large sum to spend in a short time can be more > efficient than having smaller amounts of the cash in stages, but only if > a manager is astute enough to spend it well. You might like to compare > Rafa's pretty hefty spending over his reign with those larger immediate > cash sums enjoyed by MU, MC and Chelsea and put up the case that > having it all in one go is the real difference. But is it? > Absolutely it is. Would Robinho signed for Man City if there wasn't a big money policy available? Not for Mark Hughes he wouldn't. What you have to question also is how much money Man City overspent on some players. At the moment they are talking about top 4 finishes........not challenging for titles. You can add Spurs into the above argument as well, lots of money spent but talk of a top 4 finish, not challenging for the title. If however you are already in that top 4 then a big cash injection in one go should ideally make you a serious contender for the title. It certainly worked for Chelsea. Chelsea never regressed under Avram Grant nor did they regress under Scolari, it was just that Man U were better than them over 38 games. Had John Terry not missed that penalty i doubt Grant would have been sacked, i seriously doubt Abramovich' ability to understand how good some of the other teams are in the premier league. Manchester United were blessed with having probably the best bunch of young players coming through their system at the same time than at any other time, for any football team in the world EVER. You can't win anything with kids.......well these were football men in kids bodies. They caused the dominance of Man U........and it took big money to compete against them, cue big spending Arsenal back in the 90's and early millenium. > Maybe a few of us, given �200m to spend would make a decent job of > improving the squad. Whether it would make us good managers is > another matter. If you want to make comparisons which are objective, > try matching Rafa's club and spending advantages with the vast > majority of the other EPL clubs, one of them just across the park, who > get nothing like the cash Rafa has used but who have used it more > wisely, something they have to do simply to survive. > But why do Everton have to do that.....they have the same gate size. But then again Everton aren't the small spenders as you think. Johnson (8.6m), Fellaini (15m), Yakubu (11.25m), Baines (6m), Yobo (5m), Heitinga (6.2m), Bilyaletdinov (9m), Saha (7.5m), Distin (5m for a 32yo?????). What you should have highlighted perhaps are the bargain signing that Everton have made. Cahill, Pienaar and Arteta all signed for less than 8m collectively if i'm correct. That is fantastic buying, seriously fantastic buying. > It is hardly disputable that Rafa's spendings are, to put it at its best, > very hit and miss. Isn't it a simple fact Rafa was never going to get > those �200m windfalls to spend and therefore needed to spend with > more planning and wisdom rather than make excuses about the > unlevel playing field? Your opinion that Rafa would be as good as > these others if given a massive sum to invest is only an assumption. > Does his erractic record really back it up? The evidence mostly > suggests otherwise. > Of course it is an assumption but it isn't rocket science to imagine that given 200m you could get 7 hits and maybe 1-2 misses. But despite that it is the spending power that allows you to attract the good players as they know they should be playing along side other good players. > The fact remains that his total spending would be the envy of most of > his rivals in the EPL, and although we could argue the sense of many > of his individual buys, there are some facts which stand out and many > doubts arriving from them. Despite the net balance, Rafa has spent > around �200m since he arrived at the club. Yes, he did have to sell > to buy, but mainly players not good enough which he had bought before. > I'm not sure i understand the "bought before" bit? I can talk about the likes of Veron, Manucho, Shevchenko etc etc but it seems to always come down to Rafa's bad buys. Everyone makes bad buys but you have to look at the serious expectation level of clubs. That is what it boils down to. Sure Rafa is stubborn, so was Mourinho and it got him sacked when he was being successful. But there is more than just a manager, the scouts who recommend the players, the coaches and medical staff who advise the managers. It isn't so easy as black and white. > Should a manager who was able, unlike many others, to pay out plenty > of fees in the �8 - �20m range still be in a position, after 5 years, of > carrying such a poor in depth squad? Can the buying of close to 80 > players in that same period be justified? Does carrying one of the > largest EPL playing staffs make any sense when so many of them > are poor? > For a poor squad they haven't done bad. 1 European cup 1 FA cup 2 Club record premier league points 2 champions league semi's What other club can boast that with the spending Liverpool have had? Where are Spurs, Aston Villa, Arsenal and Man City? With 5 years under their belts do you expect them to challenge? Wenger has had plenty of time.....what has he done these past 5 years? Man City have already sacked a manager since they started spending and Aston Villa have much less strength in depth. > There are plenty of things to doubt about Rafa's decisions, but judging > him on this one alone after 5 years hardly backs up your high opinion > of him. > > Right now, when without just 2 of their best squad available, and after 5 > years of team building, Liverpool are forced to resort to football more > suited to a minor league club taking on Arsenal in a cup tie. Hype > ourselves up and run like buggery. It will work.......on occasions....but > should this club really be in that position? Would they have been under > a truly GOOD manager? > Two players injured this season....... Torres Gerrard Johnson Aquilani (yes we know he was crocked before hand so he probably doesn't count). Agger Riera Aurelio Benayoun Babel Skrtel More than 2 players really. Ren
From: REDDEVIL6 on 23 Jan 2010 20:33
On Sat, 23 Jan 2010 19:32:08 -0500, "Ren" <XXXXX(a)frontiernet.netXXXXX> wrote: > >"Lescor" <lescor(a)btinternet.com> wrote in message >news:DO6dnWjhuuRGccfWnZ2dnUVZ8nmdnZ2d(a)bt.com... >> >> >> "bofh" <lancj2(a)googlemail.com> wrote in message >> news:2fa03bc6-6f46-423d-8ba4-6b9e29b55dbc(a)r24g2000yqd.googlegroups.com... >>> On 22 Jan, 23:57, "Frank Lee" <sf...(a)sccsdc.com> wrote: >>> >>> Liverpool are now watching Manchester City, in a stadium built for >>> them and given to them, Manchester City did not have the stadium given to them, in fact they do they own it. |