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From: lescor on 5 Jul 2010 03:41 "michael adams" <mjadams27(a)onetl.net.uk> wrote in message news:89cbmpFkcpU1(a)mid.individual.net... > > "lescor" <lescorbett(a)btinternet.com> wrote in message > news:1a-dnRwPc4Oj263RnZ2dnUVZ8s2dnZ2d(a)bt.com... >> > >> >> This failure to transform individuals into a good collective unit has >> been >> our problem for as far back as I remember, and that is quite a distance. >> The only exception was Ramsey's squad of '66. He was a true tactical >> giant >> ( unlike some given the same title) who produced a side which broke from >> the long tradition of playing with two wide attacking wingers ( marked >> by >> two wide full backs ) by playing with none! > > Sorry can't agree. Ramsay had the great advantage that the 1st divison > at that time, comprised mainly of English players, with a lesser number > of Scottish players and one or two players from Wales and NI. > The very fact that Ramsey could leave Jimmy Greaves out of the side showed > the wealth of talent he had at his disposal as compared with today. > He also had a big advantage in having the backbone of Moore, Peters, and > Hurst > who played together every week under Greenwood. > At that time the England team carried no passengers and the likes of Banks > and Charlton were easily among the best in the World. But nothing to > do with Ramsey > > And yet despite all that, and despite playing all their games at home > at Wembley, (and don't mention that linesman) the degree to which they > only > scraped home in many of their matches by a single goal comes as quite a > surprise. > As it didn't seem like that at the time. We only had B/W at the time and > had to > watch the colour film at the cinema which came out a good bit later IIRR. > > Nowadays the Premiership is the big moneyspinner which pays the players > wages. > That's what people pay top money to watch, week in and week out. Not > Internationals, unlike in rugby. And nothing is going to change that. Many > of the > "star" players are clearly knackered from their own domestic league and > cup > and Champions League games. It's not just physical it's mental as well. > Having to stay concentrated and motivated, maybe being asked to playing > in a completely different style and role, in a team often made up of > players who they only ever see a few days in the year. > > > michael adams I can't help wondering what you disagree about Michael ? Nothing you say seems to conflict with my post ? True that Ramsey had the advantage of a mainly all English first division and was therefore able to pick players from the same club, but he DID choose them as a unit against other contenders. The general standard of our football was poor at the time and, with a few exceptions, had fallen well below that shown by other countries. Charlton, Greaves, Moore and Banks were good and of top international standard but I never suggested that this had anything to do with Ramsey. National team managers take from what is available. Ramsey's skill was in how he built around this decent core, and your suggestion that he carried no passengers seems to suggest that he had a wealth of fine players to choose from. He didn't, and his choice of players like Stiles, Ball , Cohen and others was questioned at the time. But he made these honest grafters into effective members of a winning WC unit by imposing a strong team ethic and clearly defining what their roles were. True again that they only scraped through some of their early games without impressing, which confirms what I suggested earlier, that they were far from being the most skillful side in the competition. The Ramsey system got them through. The national teams patchy record under the previous manager Winterbottom, with its regime of constant change and whimsical amateurish selection , reflects not only the difference between other nations fast improving individual skills, but also the difference in management style. Winterbottom's - with the close help of an FA committee - seemed to be, " this lad seems to be playing well, lets give him a run out" ( a method still followed today it seems) whilst Ramsey was about TEAM and who would fit it best. Very few, apart from the usual England optimists, thought that Ramsey's boast that he would win the WC had much credibility at the time, despite our home advantage. Those who had watched the ball playing Italian, Portuguese and Spanish sides playing realistically gave us much hope. But team unity, a lot of sweat and a bit of luck got the honest toilers through. Since then we have had little success with (mainly) managers who's selection policy is like a kid in a sweet shop, picking out the ones they like best rather than building to the managers concept of exactly what he wants, regardless of reputation. I am not suggesting that this method will bring more success, but TEAM should certainly play a greater part than it now seems to where our managers have all followed the same old path of " lets take all the big names and brightest sparks and then sort it out when we get there. Les
From: CJM on 5 Jul 2010 06:21 "michael adams" <mjadams27(a)onetl.net.uk> wrote in message news:89cbmtFkdvU1(a)mid.individual.net... > > Agreed. He looked quite sharp at times, at least twice running the long > way > around defenders to the byline. He's just not had any luck with the > service > or the goals so far but he clearly doesn't lack the motivation. As much as I rate the guy, I don't think he has been at the party so far. Yes, he's not always had the best supply, and yes he is coming back from injury etc... but I think his biggest impediment is mental. As we've seen with him at Liverpool, he's easily distracted - getting into petty squabbles with refs and players, and staring/scowling at the ground - I think it's a different manifestation of the same problem. He doesn't 'believe'... he knows he's off the pace and mentally it is affecting him, which in turn spoils his game. If he switches his brain off, stops worrying about not playing so well so far, and just allowed his feet to do the work, he will come good.
From: CJM on 5 Jul 2010 06:42 "lescor" <lescorbett(a)btinternet.com> wrote in message news:1a-dnRwPc4Oj263RnZ2dnUVZ8s2dnZ2d(a)bt.com... > > > Iit is all about TEAM isn't it? No doubt there will be those who will > bring > up that old adage of German efficiency as if it was some sort of > alternative > to skill. > It comes from a confidence and awareness in each other and understanding > the system they play. > > It occurred to me as I watched them ease past overplaying Argentine, that > individually they were no better than most of those who play for England. > They worked no harder, in fact probably needed less effort, but were years > ahead as a unit. It also occurred to me how much they looked like one of > our better Prem sides who have a well established TEAM identity. > This ^ > This failure to transform individuals into a good collective unit has > been > our problem for as far back as I remember, I think we are certainly less than the sum of our parts. But I wouldn't look as far back for a different story. Once England ironed out their kinks in 1990 and switched tactics, I felt the team could and should have won the cup. We were certainly have put up a better performance than either Germany or Argentina in the final (worst final ever!). And the key strength of the team was balance and a team-wide understanding. Apart form Gazza there were few 'world class' players, but we were decent and we played together. I think the Euro team of 1996 were even better. Again, not carried by one or two stars... a decent team who understand each other, and played for each other and for the manager. Another observation I would make is that until English players are all at the same technical level as most European and Sth American countries, and until they are playing in a league which plays in an appropriate way, we should stick more to what we know. Not long ball football, but certainly as direct as the Germans and with a lot more pace. The fear is if we play at EPL tempo, we will get picked off by the more canny teams (Germany/Italy etc). But by playing the slow, ponderous game that we currently play, we are merely playing into their hands. Wimbledon didn't beat Liverpool in 1988 by putting the ball on the floor and out-passing us. They played unapologetically to their own strengths and dictated the style and tempo of the game to us. We shouldn't be playing the passing game of the Spanish, the samba football of (previous) Brazilian teams or whatever passed for Catenaccio these days. It's ironic that we hate the germans so much when they are the closest to us. A team of disciplined, fairly skilful players, that are unpretentious, hard-working and conscientious. > How much better, and how badly > needed if, instead of those wasteful 6 half time changes, the side we put > out had been the one we chose in S Africa. Lay down the law to the players... we're picking a balanced, reliable team. If you want to be in the team, you need to be available for all friendlies and not crying off with a slight strain or bruising, or with a note from their parents stating that they can't play more than 45mins on a school night. Rather than arguing with the league managers, put the onus on the players... The players who really want to play for the team will make damn sure they are released by their teams - and these are guys we want.
From: Mentalguy2k8 on 5 Jul 2010 09:08 "CJM" <cjmuk2008(a)gmail.removethis.com> wrote in message news:89dq0vF3j2U1(a)mid.individual.net... > > > "michael adams" <mjadams27(a)onetl.net.uk> wrote in message > news:89cbmtFkdvU1(a)mid.individual.net... >> >> Agreed. He looked quite sharp at times, at least twice running the long >> way >> around defenders to the byline. He's just not had any luck with the >> service >> or the goals so far but he clearly doesn't lack the motivation. > > As much as I rate the guy, I don't think he has been at the party so far. > > Yes, he's not always had the best supply, and yes he is coming back from > injury etc... but I think his biggest impediment is mental. As we've seen > with him at Liverpool, he's easily distracted - getting into petty > squabbles with refs and players, and staring/scowling at the ground - I > think it's a different manifestation of the same problem. He doesn't > 'believe'... he knows he's off the pace and mentally it is affecting him, > which in turn spoils his game. If he switches his brain off, stops > worrying about not playing so well so far, and just allowed his feet to do > the work, he will come good. What's worrying about Torres (and it shows at times for Liverpool) is that he seems to just... kind of accept things and doesn't seem to have much interaction with his team-mates. Given a bad ball, he tends to give up instead of chasing it, same as when he loses the ball. Most strikers would chase the ball until it's gone, then either bollock the passer or tell them where he wants it next time. Or give a show of appreciation after a good ball. Torres just seems to withdraw into himself and fades out of games. Then he can get spiteful, dwell on the "injustice" of it all and ends up being a passenger. As a finisher, he's excellent but I've said over the last season, there's something missing mentally. I always reckon you can tell more about players when they're not scoring than when they're knocking them in for fun.
From: lescor on 5 Jul 2010 09:19
"CJM" <cjmuk2008(a)gmail.removethis.com> wrote in message news:89dr84FahtU1(a)mid.individual.net... > > > "lescor" <lescorbett(a)btinternet.com> wrote in message > news:1a-dnRwPc4Oj263RnZ2dnUVZ8s2dnZ2d(a)bt.com... >> > >> Iit is all about TEAM isn't it? No doubt there will be those who will >> bring >> up that old adage of German efficiency as if it was some sort of >> alternative >> to skill. > >> It comes from a confidence and awareness in each other and understanding >> the system they play. >> >> It occurred to me as I watched them ease past overplaying Argentine, >> that >> individually they were no better than most of those who play for England. >> They worked no harder, in fact probably needed less effort, but were >> years >> ahead as a unit. It also occurred to me how much they looked like one of >> our better Prem sides who have a well established TEAM identity. >> > > This ^ > > >> This failure to transform individuals into a good collective unit has >> been >> our problem for as far back as I remember, > > I think we are certainly less than the sum of our parts. But I wouldn't > look as far back for a different story. Once England ironed out their > kinks in 1990 and switched tactics, I felt the team could and should have > won the cup. We were certainly have put up a better performance than > either Germany or Argentina in the final (worst final ever!). And the key > strength of the team was balance and a team-wide understanding. Apart form > Gazza there were few 'world class' players, but we were decent and we > played together. > > I think the Euro team of 1996 were even better. Again, not carried by one > or two stars... a decent team who understand each other, and played for > each other and for the manager. I agree, and admit that we have had those rare occasions in the past where the team ethic saw some light, but seldom went into the games with all kinks ironed out in the pre comp friendlies as they should have been. > Another observation I would make is that until English players are all at > the same technical level as most European and Sth American countries, and > until they are playing in a league which plays in an appropriate way, we > should stick more to what we know. Not long ball football, but certainly > as direct as the Germans and with a lot more pace. The fear is if we play > at EPL tempo, we will get picked off by the more canny teams > (Germany/Italy etc). But by playing the slow, ponderous game that we > currently play, we are merely playing into their hands. Absolutely! This has been nagging at many fans for years. We change our style of, do it quickly, do it well and do it at pace, for some imagined style we consider correct for international football which is, do it ponderously, slowly, and too often, don't do it at all. As I suggested earlier, Germany remind me of a MU or Chelsea side playing at their best. The problem is that it might be caused, not by dropping a natural playing style to substitute another , but simply because of an imposed caution caused by lack of the confidence which comes from a familiarity with each other. Our better league sides, have had 100's of games together. but our national team only a handful, a good part of which are wasted with massive substitutions. > Wimbledon didn't beat Liverpool in 1988 by putting the ball on the floor > and out-passing us. They played unapologetically to their own strengths > and dictated the style and tempo of the game to us. > > We shouldn't be playing the passing game of the Spanish, the samba > football of (previous) Brazilian teams or whatever passed for Catenaccio > these days. > > It's ironic that we hate the germans so much when they are the closest to > us. A team of disciplined, fairly skilful players, that are unpretentious, > hard-working and conscientious. I don't hate them. I like watching them play and admire the simple clarity of their approach to the game. But I do envy them and their uncluttered EPL style. >> How much better, and how badly >> needed if, instead of those wasteful 6 half time changes, the side we >> put >> out had been the one we chose in S Africa. > > Lay down the law to the players... we're picking a balanced, reliable > team. If you want to be in the team, you need to be available for all > friendlies and not crying off with a slight strain or bruising, or with a > note from their parents stating that they can't play more than 45mins on a > school night. Rather than arguing with the league managers, put the onus > on the players... The players who really want to play for the team will > make damn sure they are released by their teams - and these are guys we > want. I have never doubted their physical efforts. They run themselves hard in matches going against them. But there seems little joy in the side in playing for their country in the WC. It occurred to me as they arrived off the plane in S Africa that I had never seen such a group of miserable looking buggers. Too much EPL, CL and FA Cup over a short time to keep the spark alight? Maybe, but I suspect it showed a collection of individuals faced with a stiff task but with no confidence in the team as an effective unit. LC |