From: Clarkoo on 9 Aug 2010 16:48
On Aug 5, 8:20 pm, Lleo <lleo...(a)lycos.com> wrote:
> Due to an agreement between CBF and AFA, Brasil and Argentina will
> meet at least twice per year from 2011 onwards. The two FA's agreed to
> ressurrect the old Copa Roca, a friendly cup between these two teams,
> held irregularly between 1914 and 1976. Both will have squads composed
> only by domestically based players, and the new tournament will be
> contested in a home-and-away basis.
> It is a very nice idea, in my opinion. Both national teams, nowadays,
> are heavily foreign-based, with only a handful of squad players coming
> from the domestic league. It will provide a space for the domestic
> based players to appear, thus giving more options to both sides'
> managers. And it will do so in a stage where you can't, honestly,
> really say "we don't care" - after all, it's the old rival on the
> other side. Plus, with Brasil in process of renewing the squad, this
> couldn't have been a more welcome return IMO. I figure this also holds
> true for Argentina.
> Copa Roca was one of the numerous bilateral tournaments between South
> American countries you'd usually see until the 70's/80's. It was held
> eleven times, with seven wins for Brasil, three for Argentina and one
> shared cup. It was created by Argentinian Lt.General Julio Roca in
> 1913, namely to "serve as motivation to our countries' youth, who
> cultivate this most noble sport", and provided the stage for not only
> the early chapters of this rivalry, but some of the most bitter ones
> as well.
> It was first held in 1914, and it indeed looked like a cup as friendly
> as it could be. The Brasilian team was very welcomed in Buenos Aires,
> and although they comfortably lost a pre-cup friendly 3-0, in the
> official game itself (the first of these between Brasil and Argentina)
> they went a goal up. The Argentinians drew level with an irregular
> goal, which the referee - who was from Brasil! - didn't notice and
> validated. The fans didn't celebrate and the Argentinian captain,
> then, approached the ref, told him that the goal was illegal and his
> team wouldn't accept it. In the end, Brasil won and the celebrations
> also involved the Argentinian crowd. Can you possibly imagine such a
> scene today?
> Well, you couldn't possibly imagine it by the late 30's already.
> Argentina already had the upper hand in the head-to-head encounters,
> and had a formidable team. The games were becoming bitter battles,
> with the Brasilians getting beaten up in Buenos Aires and the
> Argentinians in Rio de Janeiro. The "macaquitos" slur appeared. After
> a few of such encounters, which involved broken legs, teams abandoning
> the pitch or at least trying to, a penalty taken after the opposing
> team abandoned the pitch and both sides's largest victory over the
> other (Argentina 6-1, Brasil 6-2), tensions finally reached their peak
> in a South American Championship game in 1946. Both sides wouldn't
> play each other for ten years, with Argentina refusing to take part of
> the SA C'ship 1949 and World Cup 1950 because they were going to be
> held in Brasil (and neither would Brasil attend the SA Championships
> held in Argentina in this period).
> Copa Roca would resume in 1957, with a certain 16-year old kid
> nicknamed "Pelé" making his debut for Brasil at the Maracanã. He
> scored a goal, but Brasil would go on to lose 1-2 to the old rival.
> Since then, Brasil went on to dominate this fixture (which was 3-3
> until then), with Argentina's only victory coming via a shared title
> in 1971. In its last edition, it wasn't even held "on its own"; there
> was this other cup, the "Copa del Atlântico" involving Brasil,
> Argentina, Uruguay and Paraguay, and Copa Roca was simply awarded to
> the winner of the Brasil vs Argentina head-to-head in this tournament
> (other bilateral minor cups that year also used this tournament's
> result - must have been fun).
> And now it returns. Cold hard logic says it is merely a glorified
> friendly. But at least it is one with some history as background, and
> that shall serve an immediate purpose from now on. CBF and AFA already
> signed terms on paper, here's hoping it will indeed come off next
I think another good idea would be to invite Spain to play in the Copa
America for the sake of the competition. But then of course it would
be a bit strange if Spain becomes "Champions of America". But I
believe it has been done before, has it?.
From: Ll�o on 9 Aug 2010 20:43
"Clarkoo" <gables0(a)yahoo.es> escreveu na mensagem
> I think another good idea would be to invite Spain to play in the Copa
> America for the sake of the competition. But then of course it would
> be a bit strange if Spain becomes "Champions of America". But I
> believe it has been done before, has it?.
I think Spain has been invited before (but didn't play), or at least
Conmebol intended to bring them in a while ago. I don't know if they gave
the same consideration to inviting Portugal, though. It would indeed be
strange to see them winning it, but this doesn't seem to bother Conmebol too
much - seeing as they brought Japan in 1999 and apparently intend to invite
them again in 2011.
From: Bruce D. Scott on 10 Aug 2010 07:36
Ll�o (lleo_lm(a)lycos.com) wrote:
: I think Spain has been invited before (but didn't play), or at least
: Conmebol intended to bring them in a while ago. I don't know if they gave
: the same consideration to inviting Portugal, though. It would indeed be
: strange to see them winning it, but this doesn't seem to bother Conmebol too
: much - seeing as they brought Japan in 1999 and apparently intend to invite
: them again in 2011.
Is the USA going to come back or have we screwed that up forever?
drift wave turbulence: http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/
From: Ll�o on 10 Aug 2010 14:19
"Bruce D. Scott" <bds(a)ipp-garching.mpg.de> escreveu na mensagem
> Ll�o (lleo_lm(a)lycos.com) wrote:
> : I think Spain has been invited before (but didn't play), or at least
> : Conmebol intended to bring them in a while ago. I don't know if they
> : the same consideration to inviting Portugal, though. It would indeed be
> : strange to see them winning it, but this doesn't seem to bother Conmebol
> : much - seeing as they brought Japan in 1999 and apparently intend to
> : them again in 2011.
> Is the USA going to come back or have we screwed that up forever?
Good question, one which I'd expect Conmebol to come up with a straight
answer. For a while we heard that the invitees would be the Gold Cup
finalists, but now they again seem to add Japan to the mix... I certainly
hope they aren't auctioning the spot!