From: Manx Gunner on
[MH <MHnospam(a)ucalgary.ca>]
[Sat, 26 Jun 2010 16:50:01 -0600]

: IN other words you haven't a clue what you are talking about.

There is a very large difference between deliberately for you and me and
deliberately for a professional athlete with that kind of body control.

Arm out away from the body = intent to have it be in play, 99.99% of the
time, as has been consistently called and pointed out by officials on
the rare occasions that they've spoken to the media about this (or
fairly often in the case of Dermot Whatshisname on Sky Sports).

--
"Look at the way teams play against Arsenal. They don't believe they
can win. They don't believe." -- Jose Mourinho
From: Bruce D. Scott on
Manx Gunner (goal(a)4thegunners!com) wrote:
: On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 15:22:29 +0000 (UTC), Bruce D. Scott wrote...

: > Still, Uruguay are sitting back way too much and the gods should punish
: > it.

: It would seem that the soccer gods agree with you, Bruce.

Well I was surely a kiss of death today. Each time I gave credit to a
side it failed. Of course, you could also say the results were
according to form (e.g., Ghana deserved their win today a lot more than
most people in this country think they did).

--
ciao,
Bruce

drift wave turbulence: http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/
From: Bruce D. Scott on
Manx Gunner (goal(a)4thegunners!com) wrote:
: On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 15:23:18 +0000 (UTC), Bruce D. Scott wrote...

: > Actually it does... the word intentional is pretty prominent in the
: > relevant clauses in the Laws.

: Actually it doesn't... such a word is very much open to interpretation.
: I've heard more than one official talking about this on Sky/BBC/etc,
: pointing out that when you leave your arms in the way of play, you don't
: really have an argument that you had no intention of them interfering.

I agree with that interpretation (see Frings, 2002, versus Baggio
against Chile, 1998), but I've been admonished many times it isn't the
way the rules are written. The "natural versus unnatural motion" debate
going on in Germany (another high profile case was in the Cup Final this
season) also suggests otherwise. I don't like the fact that referees
are asked to judge determination of intent.

--
ciao,
Bruce

drift wave turbulence: http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/
From: Bruce D. Scott on
Mark V. (markvanderv1(a)yahoo.com) wrote:
: On Jun 26, 11:35=A0am, Manx Gunner <goal(a)4thegunners!com> wrote:
: > On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 15:30:59 GMT, Diabolik wrote...
: > > > Part of the problem is people thinking that it matters whether or not
: > > > it's deliberate in all cases. =A0It doesn't.
: >
: > > Of course it does. It has to be intentional.
: >
: > Of course it doesn't, as numerous officials have stated in the past.
: >
: > If your arm is away from your body and stops the ball on the line, it's
: > a penalty - period, and with no whining arguing about whether or not you
: > meant to cheat the other team out of a goal or not.

: Game on! Suarez goal in the 80th!

Fantastic goal, unstoppable if the guy succeeds in putting a curve on
like that. It also justly punished the Koreans for giving away the
initiative without being forced to, after they scored.

--
ciao,
Bruce

drift wave turbulence: http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/
From: Bruce D. Scott on
Mark V. (markvanderv1(a)yahoo.com) wrote:

|> Here are the FIFA laws, from page 113 of the "Laws of the Game".

|> Interesting. Did you know that you can't hold your shinguard in your
|> hand and whack at the ball? Or that the word "handball" does not
|> appear in the laws?

!!!

|> ----------------------
|> Handling the ball

|> Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact
^^^^^^^^^^
ahh, there it is

|> with the ball with his hand or arm. The referee must take the following
|> into consideration:
[...]

They should add another line about increasing one's cross section just
before interference with the ball occurs.

--
ciao,
Bruce

drift wave turbulence: http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/