Unsophisticated WC trivia
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From: Clément on 16 Jun 2010 12:32 On Jun 16, 5:10 am, Abubakr wrote: > On Jun 9, 11:19 pm, Lleo wrote: > > > The list below has the traditional top-12 teams in Brasil, ranked by > > (a) total amount of appearances (apps) in a WC squad, (b) amount of > > different players and (c) amount of WC's it was "represented" (be it > > for Brasil or another nt). > > > 1 Botafogo 47 apps by 38 players, 16 WC's > > 2 São Paulo 46 apps by 38 players, 15 WC's > > 3 Flamengo 34 apps by 32 players, 16 WC's > > 4 Vasco 32 apps by 30 players, 11 WC's > > 5 Fluminense 31 apps by 24 players. 13 WC's > > 6 Palmeiras 29 apps by 23 players, 14 WC's > > 7 Corinthians 27 apps by 24 players, 14 WC's > > 8 Santos 26 apps by 17 players, 8 WC's > > 9 Cruzeiro 13 apps by 10 players, 8 WC's > > 10 Atlético-MG 12 apps by 11 players, 8 WC's > > 11 Internacional 11 apps by 11 players, 7 WC's > > 12 Grêmio 8 apps by 8 players, 6 WC's > > So basically the Rio-Sao Paulo cartel has had a stranglehold on the > Selecao with scraps thrown the "provincials'" way. Is is reflective of > how the Braseilero has gone down through the years? I'm not sure I fully understand what you're asking here, but basically clubs from the states São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro used to send about 100% of the NT players, a trend that goes from the very beginning (1914) up to the 1970s (more or less). There are reasons for this. The obvious one, the cities of São Paulo and Rio are the two biggest economic, political, and cultural centers of the country. Plus, back in the day the huge distances and the lack of TV broadcasts meant that "provincial" players would not get the same exposure as their "big city" counterparts. Another factor is the lack of a national league, and the Brasileirão was played for the first time 1971. Abraço, Luiz Mello
From: William Clark on 16 Jun 2010 15:42 In article <hvafap$ge5$1(a)news.eternal-september.org>, Jesper Lauridsen <rorschak(a)sorrystofanet.dk> wrote: > On 2010-06-16, Joachim Parsch <sm(a)bunuel.franken.de> wrote: > > > > > > Jesper Lauridsen schrieb: > >> > >> Here's a fun little trivia question for you. When was the last time a > >> World Cup winning side didn't have at least one player who, at some > >> point in his career (past or future), pulled on a Bayern jersey? > > > > 2006 Luca Toni > > 2002 Lucio > > 1998 Lizarazu > > 1994 Jorginho > > 1990 Matth�us, Brehme, Augenthaler, Kohler, Klinsmann, Reuter, Thon... > > 1986 none, I think > > > > Can't remember an Argentinian with Bayern before Demichelis > > arrived, and I'm pretty sure, he wasn't in the squad back then :-) > > My choice of words was specifically designed to include Maradonna > playing for Bayern in Lothar's testemonial match... It's cheating, > I know. Well, if it's Maradonna, then "cheating" is quite appropriate ;-)
From: Lleo on 16 Jun 2010 20:07 On 16 jun, 13:32, Clément <lcmello.lis...(a)terra.com.br> wrote: > On Jun 16, 5:10 am, Abubakr wrote: > > On Jun 9, 11:19 pm, Lleo wrote: > > > > The list below has the traditional top-12 teams in Brasil, ranked by > > > (a) total amount of appearances (apps) in a WC squad, (b) amount of > > > different players and (c) amount of WC's it was "represented" (be it > > > for Brasil or another nt). > > > > 1 Botafogo 47 apps by 38 players, 16 WC's > > > 2 São Paulo 46 apps by 38 players, 15 WC's > > > 3 Flamengo 34 apps by 32 players, 16 WC's > > > 4 Vasco 32 apps by 30 players, 11 WC's > > > 5 Fluminense 31 apps by 24 players. 13 WC's > > > 6 Palmeiras 29 apps by 23 players, 14 WC's > > > 7 Corinthians 27 apps by 24 players, 14 WC's > > > 8 Santos 26 apps by 17 players, 8 WC's > > > 9 Cruzeiro 13 apps by 10 players, 8 WC's > > > 10 Atlético-MG 12 apps by 11 players, 8 WC's > > > 11 Internacional 11 apps by 11 players, 7 WC's > > > 12 Grêmio 8 apps by 8 players, 6 WC's > > > So basically the Rio-Sao Paulo cartel has had a stranglehold on the > > Selecao with scraps thrown the "provincials'" way. Is is reflective of > > how the Braseilero has gone down through the years? > > I'm not sure I fully understand what you're asking here, but basically > clubs from the states São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro used to send about > 100% of the NT players, a trend that goes from the very beginning > (1914) up to the 1970s (more or less). > > There are reasons for this. The obvious one, the cities of São Paulo > and Rio are the two biggest economic, political, and cultural centers > of the country. > > Plus, back in the day the huge distances and the lack of TV broadcasts > meant that "provincial" players would not get the same exposure as > their "big city" counterparts. > > Another factor is the lack of a national league, and the Brasileirão > was played for the first time 1971. And that is when, although still in a small scale, players from Belo Horizonte and Porto Alegre teams began to appear in WC squads more often. I believe this, in a way, confirms the point about exposure. Now they were challenging the cariocas and paulistas for championships, it was impossible to deny their strenght. Indeed, I'd say this process started with the Roberto Gomes Pedrosa tournaments, in the late 60's. They were expansions of the old Rio-São Paulo tournaments, adding teams from other cities, but their format and participants weren't too different from the subsequent Campeonatos Brasileiros. You could even argue that these tournaments (and not the Taça Brasil, as some usually do), from 1967 to 1970, should be held in equal standing with the Brasileirão titles. From 1930 to 1966, Brasil's WC squads had a total of seven players from outside Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo (and two of these from Uruguay!). In 1970 alone it was five, and up to 1986 no less than four (six in 1982). From 1990 onwards the squad began to be composed mostly by foreign-based players, and in the 2000's it is almost entirely so. If the question was about league titles, well, the list doesn't really reflect the relative "footballing strenghts" of each region because it goes all the way back to 1930, while the "provincials" were only really given a chance from 1970 onwards. So, in a sense, the top eight teams on that list had a head start of eight World Cups... hardly a small fraction! Here's how the list looks like counting from 1970 to 2010, plus the amount of league titles (and cup wins, fwiw) of each team: 1 São Paulo 27 apps / 10 WCs / 6 leagues, 0 cup 2 Flamengo 17 apps / 10 WCs / 5 leagues, 2 cups 3 Botafogo 15 apps / 7 WCs / 1 league, 0 cup 4 Corinthians 14 apps / 8 WCs / 4 leagues, 3 cups 5 Palmeiras 14 apps / 6 WCs / 4 leagues, 1 cup 6 Vasco 12 apps / 5 WCs / 4 leagues, 0 cup 7 Cruzeiro 10 apps / 7 WCs / 1 leagues, 4 cups 8 Atlético-MG 10 apps / 6 WCs / 1 league, 0 cup 9 Fluminense 9 apps / 6 WCs / 1 league, 1 cup 10 Santos 8 apps / 3 WCs / 2 leagues, 0 cup (current finalist) 11 Internacional 6 apps / 5 WCs / 3 leagues, 1 cup 12 Grêmio 6 apps / 4 WCs / 2 leagues, 4 cups Some foreign teams (eg, Real Madrid, Milan, Roma) should appear here now, but I'm not looking them up atm. As you can see, the top five winners of the Brasilian league are in spots 1-6 in the above list (Botafogo is the "intruder"). The gaúchos should probably be a bit higher, but the difference between 7-12 doesn't seem to be that big anyway. -- Lléo
From: Lleo on 16 Jun 2010 20:31 On 16 jun, 21:07, Lleo <lleo...(a)lycos.com> wrote: > If the question was about league titles, well, the list doesn't really > reflect the relative "footballing strenghts" of each region because it > goes all the way back to 1930, while the "provincials" were only > really given a chance from 1970 onwards. So, in a sense, the top eight > teams on that list had a head start of eight World Cups... hardly a > small fraction! Here's how the list looks like counting from 1970 to > 2010, plus the amount of league titles (and cup wins, fwiw) of each > team: > > 1 São Paulo 27 apps / 10 WCs / 6 leagues, 0 cup > 2 Flamengo 17 apps / 10 WCs / 5 leagues, 2 cups > 3 Botafogo 15 apps / 7 WCs / 1 league, 0 cup > 4 Corinthians 14 apps / 8 WCs / 4 leagues, 3 cups > 5 Palmeiras 14 apps / 6 WCs / 4 leagues, 1 cup > 6 Vasco 12 apps / 5 WCs / 4 leagues, 0 cup > 7 Cruzeiro 10 apps / 7 WCs / 1 leagues, 4 cups > 8 Atlético-MG 10 apps / 6 WCs / 1 league, 0 cup > 9 Fluminense 9 apps / 6 WCs / 1 league, 1 cup > 10 Santos 8 apps / 3 WCs / 2 leagues, 0 cup (current > finalist) > 11 Internacional 6 apps / 5 WCs / 3 leagues, 1 cup > 12 Grêmio 6 apps / 4 WCs / 2 leagues, 4 cups Just as an addendum, the above list only counts players ceded to Brasil's WC squads. Adding the ones ceded to foreign teams (Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, Chile and Colombia), we get the following: 1 São Paulo 32 apps / 10 WCs / 6 leagues, 0 cup 2 Palmeiras 19 apps / 8 WCs / 4 leagues, 1 cup 3 Flamengo 18 apps / 10 WCs / 5 leagues, 2 cups 4 Corinthians 17 apps / 9 WCs / 4 leagues, 3 cups 5 Botafogo 16 apps / 8 WCs / 1 league, 0 cup 6 Atlético-MG 12 apps / 8 WCs / 1 league, 0 cup 7 Cruzeiro 12 apps / 7 WCs / 1 leagues, 4 cups 8 Vasco 12 apps / 5 WCs / 4 leagues, 0 cup 9 Fluminense 10 apps / 6 WCs / 1 league, 1 cup 10 Santos 10 apps / 5 WCs / 2 leagues, 0 cup 11 Internacional 9 apps / 6 WCs / 3 leagues, 1 cup 12 Grêmio 7 apps / 5 WCs / 2 leagues, 4 cups -- Lléo
From: Abubakr on 17 Jun 2010 23:12
On Jun 17, 10:31 am, Lleo <lleo...(a)lycos.com> wrote: > On 16 jun, 21:07, Lleo <lleo...(a)lycos.com> wrote: > > > > > > > If the question was about league titles, well, the list doesn't really > > reflect the relative "footballing strenghts" of each region because it > > goes all the way back to 1930, while the "provincials" were only > > really given a chance from 1970 onwards. So, in a sense, the top eight > > teams on that list had a head start of eight World Cups... hardly a > > small fraction! Here's how the list looks like counting from 1970 to > > 2010, plus the amount of league titles (and cup wins, fwiw) of each > > team: > > > 1 São Paulo 27 apps / 10 WCs / 6 leagues, 0 cup > > 2 Flamengo 17 apps / 10 WCs / 5 leagues, 2 cups > > 3 Botafogo 15 apps / 7 WCs / 1 league, 0 cup > > 4 Corinthians 14 apps / 8 WCs / 4 leagues, 3 cups > > 5 Palmeiras 14 apps / 6 WCs / 4 leagues, 1 cup > > 6 Vasco 12 apps / 5 WCs / 4 leagues, 0 cup > > 7 Cruzeiro 10 apps / 7 WCs / 1 leagues, 4 cups > > 8 Atlético-MG 10 apps / 6 WCs / 1 league, 0 cup > > 9 Fluminense 9 apps / 6 WCs / 1 league, 1 cup > > 10 Santos 8 apps / 3 WCs / 2 leagues, 0 cup (current > > finalist) > > 11 Internacional 6 apps / 5 WCs / 3 leagues, 1 cup > > 12 Grêmio 6 apps / 4 WCs / 2 leagues, 4 cups > > Just as an addendum, the above list only counts players ceded to > Brasil's WC squads. Adding the ones ceded to foreign teams (Argentina, > Uruguay, Paraguay, Chile and Colombia), we get the following: > > 1 São Paulo 32 apps / 10 WCs / 6 leagues, 0 cup > 2 Palmeiras 19 apps / 8 WCs / 4 leagues, 1 cup > 3 Flamengo 18 apps / 10 WCs / 5 leagues, 2 cups > 4 Corinthians 17 apps / 9 WCs / 4 leagues, 3 cups > 5 Botafogo 16 apps / 8 WCs / 1 league, 0 cup > 6 Atlético-MG 12 apps / 8 WCs / 1 league, 0 cup > 7 Cruzeiro 12 apps / 7 WCs / 1 leagues, 4 cups > 8 Vasco 12 apps / 5 WCs / 4 leagues, 0 cup > 9 Fluminense 10 apps / 6 WCs / 1 league, 1 cup > 10 Santos 10 apps / 5 WCs / 2 leagues, 0 cup > 11 Internacional 9 apps / 6 WCs / 3 leagues, 1 cup > 12 Grêmio 7 apps / 5 WCs / 2 leagues, 4 cups > > -- > Lléo Thanks for these two brilliant write-ups. It was exactly what I was looking for. Good job! |