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From: Bruce D. Scott on 16 Jun 2010 10:20
Huw Morris (no(a)spam.please) wrote:
: The case I mentioned is a quite specific one. Ten years ago, if a forward
: was standing in front of the defence, looking to gain an advantage, he would
: be deemed to be offside, even if the ball was played to an onside team-mate
: down the wings. That is no longer the case, and I think this is what is
: having a detrimental effect at this tournament.
Yes, this is what I also have been citing. Leads to the central decoy
plays by strikers. All you have to do is to look at film and measure
the fraction of time strikers spend hanging around offside. Ruud van
Nistelrooy was a master at this when he could run faster. There's also
the move Brasil did against the Netherlands in one of their first two
goals in the 1994 match. Was that the first year the new interpretation
became valid? Or was it just officially confirmed later?
But I agree with you that it causes problems when the defense doesn't
know if a player is offside.
drift wave turbulence: http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/
From: HASM on 16 Jun 2010 10:40
Deeppe <tutall(a)hotmail.com> writes:
>> And again, this has always been the case, as far as I remember,
> Your memory is lacking. Or things have come full circle since the time
> when you were still active. Bruce accurately describes the change
> that's occurred over the last decade.
> Would you like me to refer you to a referee email lists?
> No need to rely on our word, you can check it for yourself.
Here's the full text of "Law 11 - offside" from the "2000/2001 Laws of the
Game" official FIFA book, the oldest one I could find (not sure where I put
my older ones).
Law 11 - Offside
It is not an offense in itself to be in an offside position.
A player is in an offside position if:
- he is nearer to his opponents' goal line than both the ball and the
second to last opponent
A player is not in offside position if:
- he is in his own half of the field of play
- he is level with the second to last opponent
- he is level with the last two opponents
A player in an offside position is only penalized if, at the moment the
ball touches or is played by one of hist team, he is, in the opinion of the
referee, involved in active play by:
- interfering with play
- interfering with an opponent
- gaining an advantage by being in that position
There is no offside offense if a player receives the ball directly from:
- a goal kick
- a throw in
- a corner kick
For any offside offense, the referee awards an indirect free kick to the
opposing team taken from the place where the infringement occurred.* (see
page 3/exception of ball placement in the goal area).
This is 2000/2001, the book is 10 years old. Pretty much the same as it is
From: HASM on 16 Jun 2010 10:46
Huw Morris <no(a)spam.please> writes:
> Ten years ago, if a forward was standing in front of the defence, looking
> to gain an advantage, he would be deemed to be offside, even if the ball
> was played to an onside team-mate down the wings.
Not if he was "looking", only if he was "gaining" an advantage, in the
opinion of the referee. That was certainly the way I was taught and it is
still applied today. The gaining an advantage was changed to "interfering
with play" to make it more clear what FIFA always wanted.
From: Huw Morris on 16 Jun 2010 11:54
> Not if he was "looking", only if he was "gaining" an advantage, in the
> opinion of the referee. That was certainly the way I was taught and it is
> still applied today. The gaining an advantage was changed to "interfering
> with play" to make it more clear what FIFA always wanted.
"Looking to gain an advantage" is my words, not FIFA's. A player standing in
such a position *is* gaining an advantage. Why FIFA don't see it that way is
baffling to me. By liberalising the interpretation to say a player is only
offside if he actually touches the ball is making the game worse.
I think we're arguing two different points. I know what the offside law
states. My point is that how referees have been instructed to *interpret*
that law has changed drastically over the last 20 years.
From: Futbolmetrix on 16 Jun 2010 12:44
On Jun 16, 5:20 pm, b...(a)ipp-garching.mpg.de (Bruce D. Scott) wrote:
> There's also
> the move Brasil did against the Netherlands in one of their first two
> goals in the 1994 match. Was that the first year the new interpretation
> became valid? Or was it just officially confirmed later?
Bebeto's goal, Brazil's second:
I think that was before the "clarification", and I think that even
under the old directives it was quite appropriate not to sanction that
as offside. Romario is walking away from goal and not caring about the
ball in the least. Only under an extremely broad, and quite frankly
unreasonable, definition of "interfering with play" would that be a
A better example is Wiltord's goal against Denmark in Euro 2000, or
RVN in Holland - Czech Republic in Euro 2004.
Here I would agree that it's extremely generous to say that RVN is
*not* interfering with play. But that's what the new directive is