From: Bob on
Mehdi wrote:
>> Subject : Most mediocre teams to win the WC
> > From : italian.mike08(a)gmail.com
>
>> Anyone who jumps on bandwagons will do this, true. After 2002 I saw
>> so many people who were not Brazilian wearing Brazil jersey's, same
>> with Italian jerseys after 2006. Already I've seen an increase in
>> Spanish jersey's. I'm not surprised. Most people want to be winners.
>
> It's not jumping on the bandwagon that I have issues with, the issue
> is the manner of victory. We both know had Italy won 2006 playing the
> style of football Brazil played in 1994, almost kicking their way to
> victory or Spain in 2010 with a tedious and again cynical style of
> football not to mention the worst diving and playacting by any team
> in a tournament since 1990 it would have been hailed as the death of
> football. Spain score one goal more than Greece in 2004, having
> played a game more, yet they're still a great 'attacking' side. The
> hypocrisy is astounding but if nothing else it provides plenty of
> ammunition against the many detractors of calcio.

Spiteful little man doesn't like that offensive football won out this time
around.


From: Italian Mike on
Mehdi wrote:
> > Subject : Most mediocre teams to win the WC
> > From : italian.mike08(a)gmail.com
>
> > Anyone who jumps on bandwagons will do this, true. After 2002 I saw so
> > many people who were not Brazilian wearing Brazil jersey's, same with
> > Italian jerseys after 2006. Already I've seen an increase in Spanish
> > jersey's. I'm not surprised. Most people want to be winners.
>
> It's not jumping on the bandwagon that I have issues with, the issue is
> the manner of victory. We both know had Italy won 2006 playing the style
> of football Brazil played in 1994, almost kicking their way to victory
> or Spain in 2010 with a tedious and again cynical style of football not
> to mention the worst diving and playacting by any team in a tournament
> since 1990 it would have been hailed as the death of football. Spain
> score one goal more than Greece in 2004, having played a game more, yet
> they're still a great 'attacking' side. The hypocrisy is astounding but
> if nothing else it provides plenty of ammunition against the many
> detractors of calcio.

The hypocrisy used to bother me, but it doesn't anymore, and there is
nothing else I can add to what you say here. I agree.

That said, I do believe Spain and Brazil were the best teams in this
world cup, inspite of how they played, they were the most complete. I
have no argument for or against anything anyone wants to say about
Italy really. They didn't deserve to go any further than they did
based on their play overall. But again, I agree. I don't know where
the pundits or critics, whatever you want to call them, can claim
Spain was the offensive juggernaut that they say. They possessed the
ball, and often it didn't lead to anything significant, which is why I
stand by my assessment that it was primarily a good defensive strategy.
From: Italian Mike on
Bob wrote:
> Italian Mike wrote:
> > Bob wrote:
> >> Binder Dundat wrote:
> >>> On Jul 19, 11:49 am, "Bob" <B...(a)Bob.com> wrote:
> >>>> Italian Mike wrote:
> >>>>> Mehdi wrote:
> >>>>>>> Subject : Most mediocre teams to win the WC
> >>>>>>> From : italian.mik...(a)gmail.com
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> Exactly, the praise this team has earned in the media just
> >>>>>>> reveals the quality of the double standards that exist.
> >>>>
> >>>>>> While this is true I also think this WC will be forgotten about
> >>>>>> very quickly. There wasn't a single all time great at this
> >>>>>> tournament, there were three players that would have reached that
> >>>>>> status had they won the competition i.e. Maicon, Lucio and Messi.
> >>>>
> >>>>> It may be forgotten, or seen as it really was by seasoned viewers
> >>>>> who know what they are watching, but the typical World Cup fan
> >>>>> every four years is going to repeat what they are told, and Spain
> >>>>> being one of the greatest attacking teams of all time is likely
> >>>>> what they'll be repeating. I've heard it already being echoed
> >>>>> around my parts and it's hardly a soccer/football mad city.
> >>>>
> >>>>> Anyway, whoever said that Spains Tiki-Taka was a defensive weapon
> >>>>> was bang on. I'll be honest, it was a good defensive weapon too,
> >>>>> but nothing more than that. Other goals came on desperation
> >>>>> plays, set pieces, and direct football, no square or triangle
> >>>>> passing into the net at all.
> >>>>
> >>>> Spain outshot their opponents by 33-50% (except for Chile). Playing
> >>>> possession ball (an offensive tactics) has always lead to stronger
> >>>> defense, way before the words tiki taka were pronounced for the
> >>>> first time. Spare us the senseless negative spin.
> >>>
> >>> I think the best defensive weapon is attacking every time you have
> >>> the ball, keeping it away from the opponent and scoring on each
> >>> attack. I know it is purely a defensive tactic but it can work! I
> >>> mean if you could score every time you have possession and
> >>> continuously attack and the other team never has the ball you stand
> >>> a better than 50% chance of at least getting a draw?
> >>
> >> pretty much ;)
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Man this group goes down hill during the summer, too bad there
> >>> wasn't some football event they could plan to keep people occupied
> >>> during June and July?
> >>>
> >>> Now can someone please analyze the best shoe laces to use on a wet
> >>> pitch! Or how about the stats on curly haired players accuracy on
> >>> headers vs bald headed players?
> >>>
> >>> Spain deserved to win the WM, plain and simple.
> >>
> >> That's a fact the negative spinmeisters can't contest, but they'll
> >> try to tarnish that win as much as they can.
> >
> > Tarnish what? Here's another example of assaulting the messenger, not
> > the message. If you have a counter argument, make it, otherwise you've
> > failed to say anything significant.
>
> I have already made my argument but you'd rather ignore it than answer it.

You'll have to forgive me Bob. I haven't tracked down all your
arguments pro or con. I responded to the statement you made directly
to me which was void of any argument really.

> > Keeping possession is a brilliant defensive strategy, especially when
> > you can't triangle pass the ball in the net. These are facts that are
> > quite easily observable when you watch Spain play. I also said they
> > were probably the best team in the tournament aside from Brazil.
> > Where's the negative spin in that?
>
> Because you know that teams with offensive tactics are more highly regarded
> by today's fans

So they say.

>whereas teams with mostly defensive tactics aren't so much
> appreciated.

So they say.

> > When Spain needed a goal, it wasn't from triangle passing. It was
> > usually a direct assault on net, or a set play.

> All teams faced with mostly defensive tactics have similar difficulty
> scoring in the modern game.

It's not about having difficulty scoring, it was the manner in which
Spain found their goals that I'm specifically discussing. Name one
time they triangle passed into a goal. The triangle passing strategy
that made up a bulk of Spain's display was, as I've already said, good
for keeping possession in the neutral area of the pitch hence a good
defensive strategy and largely useless in getting them goals. Their
goals came on much more direct approach or set plays. As I said, if
you have a counter argument to that, you can present it.

> > Counter that as an argument, if you can.

> LOL.

Ok, you chose not to, or are unable to. No difference to me. I've made
no qualitative argument for/againt Spain's play. I've said
specifically where and why I think they used the approach they did.
You, on the other hand, have provided no substance whatsoever. No
better than trolling really.
From: Italian Mike on
Bob wrote:
> Mehdi wrote:
> >> Subject : Most mediocre teams to win the WC
> > > From : italian.mike08(a)gmail.com
> >
> >> Anyone who jumps on bandwagons will do this, true. After 2002 I saw
> >> so many people who were not Brazilian wearing Brazil jersey's, same
> >> with Italian jerseys after 2006. Already I've seen an increase in
> >> Spanish jersey's. I'm not surprised. Most people want to be winners.
> >
> > It's not jumping on the bandwagon that I have issues with, the issue
> > is the manner of victory. We both know had Italy won 2006 playing the
> > style of football Brazil played in 1994, almost kicking their way to
> > victory or Spain in 2010 with a tedious and again cynical style of
> > football not to mention the worst diving and playacting by any team
> > in a tournament since 1990 it would have been hailed as the death of
> > football. Spain score one goal more than Greece in 2004, having
> > played a game more, yet they're still a great 'attacking' side. The
> > hypocrisy is astounding but if nothing else it provides plenty of
> > ammunition against the many detractors of calcio.
>
> Spiteful little man doesn't like that offensive football won out this time
> around.

I'm interested in knowing what sort of football won in 2006 then?
Don't hold back either ;)
From: Mart van de Wege on
Mehdi <Benny(a)soccer-europe.com> writes:

>
> Did you see of any of Holland's games since BVM took over?

I'm surprised you'd say that. Did you see the qualification at all?

> This is how they play.

Even given that Bert is a little less romantic about 'attacking at all
costs' than most of his colleagues, the particular mediocre display at
the WC was out of line with the performance at the qualification.

Mart

--
"We will need a longer wall when the revolution comes."
--- AJS, quoting an uncertain source.