From: chris m on
In article <hdbcsp$i7i$1(a)news.eternal-september.org>, El Kot
<nono.black.elko(a)gmail.com> wrote:

> Jussi Uosukainen wrote:
> > El Kot <nono.black.elko(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Jussi Uosukainen wrote:
> >>> Manx Gunner <goal(a)4thegunners!com> wrote:
> >>>> On 09 Nov 2009 22:01:48 GMT, Jussi Uosukainen wrote...
> >>>>
> >>>>> 2 - 2 Gerrard (pen)
> >>>> No comment on Ngog's dive?
> >>> Ngog dived to win a penalty.
> >> I think this is one of these strange controversial cases. True,
> >> Ngog was not tripped, he fell on his own accord. But the reason he was
> >> not tripped is because he jumped to avoid being tripped. The defender
> >> most certainly did not get the ball. If Ngog had not jumped, he would
> >> have been tripped, and it would have been a stonewall penalty. But then
> >> he might have been injured by the tackle.
> >> On balance, I think the penalty was fair, if not exactly to the
> >> letter of the rules. Maybe another rule needs to be added - if a player
> >> has to jump to avoid being fouled, then it's a foul. :)
> >>
> > TBH, he dived. He could have jumped the tackle and kept his footing,
> > just decided to go down to earn a point.
>
> Yes, he dived. That's not the point. The point is, if he had to
> jump to avoid the tackle, then that tackle was illegal to begin with,
> and should have been penalized in some way.
> To extend an analogy - should the sentence be the same for murder
> as for attempted murder? And moreover, should it make a difference, if
> the victim dodged the bullet, but fell to the ground and pretended he
> was dead? The attempt to kill him took place regardless. :)

NOOOOOO!!!!!! There has to be contact. A oenalty is due to a foul in
the penalty area. If your logic held true, players would be diving all
over the field, all of the time, to avoid fouls, thereby winning the
ball. Football would become a game of wusses throwing themselves to
the ground to avoid a hard tackle. It would be a farce.

Ngog dove. It cost Birmingham the game, and perhaps saved Benitez his
job. The dive had huge implications. If Eduardo got sanctioned by
UEFA, then the FA should slap Ngog silly.

chris m
From: MH on


chris m wrote:
> In article <hdbcsp$i7i$1(a)news.eternal-september.org>, El Kot
> <nono.black.elko(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Jussi Uosukainen wrote:
>>
>>>El Kot <nono.black.elko(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Jussi Uosukainen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Manx Gunner <goal(a)4thegunners!com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On 09 Nov 2009 22:01:48 GMT, Jussi Uosukainen wrote...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>2 - 2 Gerrard (pen)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>No comment on Ngog's dive?
>>>>>
>>>>>Ngog dived to win a penalty.
>>>>
>>>> I think this is one of these strange controversial cases. True,
>>>>Ngog was not tripped, he fell on his own accord. But the reason he was
>>>>not tripped is because he jumped to avoid being tripped. The defender
>>>>most certainly did not get the ball. If Ngog had not jumped, he would
>>>>have been tripped, and it would have been a stonewall penalty. But then
>>>>he might have been injured by the tackle.
>>>> On balance, I think the penalty was fair, if not exactly to the
>>>>letter of the rules. Maybe another rule needs to be added - if a player
>>>>has to jump to avoid being fouled, then it's a foul. :)
>>>>
>>>
>>>TBH, he dived. He could have jumped the tackle and kept his footing,
>>>just decided to go down to earn a point.
>>
>> Yes, he dived. That's not the point. The point is, if he had to
>>jump to avoid the tackle, then that tackle was illegal to begin with,
>>and should have been penalized in some way.
>> To extend an analogy - should the sentence be the same for murder
>>as for attempted murder? And moreover, should it make a difference, if
>>the victim dodged the bullet, but fell to the ground and pretended he
>>was dead? The attempt to kill him took place regardless. :)
>
>
> NOOOOOO!!!!!! There has to be contact.

Bollocks ! Have you ever even read the rules (aka Laws of the game) ?

I quote: (LAW 12, direct free kick)

Kicks or ATTEMPTS to kick ....


Trips or Attempts to trip ....


Jumps at an opponent

Strikes or attempts to strike....


BTW I am not saying that Ngog didn't dive, just clarifying this myth
about "contact".

A oenalty is due to a foul in
> the penalty area. If your logic held true, players would be diving all
> over the field, all of the time, to avoid fouls, thereby winning the
> ball. Football would become a game of wusses throwing themselves to
> the ground to avoid a hard tackle. It would be a farce.
>
> Ngog dove. It cost Birmingham the game, and perhaps saved Benitez his
> job. The dive had huge implications. If Eduardo got sanctioned by
> UEFA, then the FA should slap Ngog silly.
>
> chris m

From: Binder Dundat on
On Nov 10, 2:50 am, Jussi Uosukainen <j...(a)iki.fi> wrote:
> Binder Dundat <dun...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Nov 9, 5:58 pm, Benny <Be...(a)soccer-europe.com> wrote:
> >>  > Subject : Liverpool - Birmingham [R] 9.11.09
> >>  > From : ju...(a)zulu-30.nebula.fi
>
> >>  > FT 2 - 2
> >>  >
> >>  > 1 - 0 Ngog
> >>  > 1 - 1 Benitez
> >>  > 1 - 2 Jerome
> >>  > 2 - 2 Gerrard (pen)
> >>  >
> >>  > Pathetic. Sure, Torres was out, Riera was injured before half time and
> >>  > Benitez put on the half fit Gerrard, who was pretty anonymous. At least
> >>  > Kyrgiakos and Voronin were not on the pitch at any time.
> >>  >
> >>  > The second Brum goal was Reinas fault, he came off the line at the wrong
> >>  > time. Agger also backed away for no good reason, and Mascherano was
> >>  > behind the player. Without that fluke, the result could have been very
> >>  > different
>
> >> It would have been very different without Ngog doing a Gerrard to win a
> >> penalty.
>
> >> --http://soccer-europe.com
> >> Rss feed :http://soccer-europe.com/RSS/News.xml
>
> > I watched this game and it was not very good. Liverpool should have
> > had this game wrapped up in the first 10 minutes. It is not Benitez's
> > fault they could only get a draw. Ngog scored a nice goal and won a
> > debatable penalty so he did his job.  Nobody else for Liverpool looked
> > good. A coaching change might help the lethargic attitude of the
> > players, but that is about it. And I am not sure it would even do
> > that? The crowd was kind of quiet as well? It would also be nice if
> > ESPN found an english speaking commentator instead of Chris Waddle? I
> > can barely understand him when i am drunk!
>
> I thought Johnson also played very well, very good runs into the box at
> times. Just what a fullback needs to do when playing against weaker
> opposition at home.

Agreed but i thought his crosses and passing were poor.

Kuyt and Gerrard work hard as well but seem to lack the right final
touch be it passing or shooting.
Dietmar Hamman was a player who rarely made the 50 yard through pass
but he rarely gave the ball away. I think they need someone like
Hamman to retain possession make simple passes and slow things down
instead of always looking for the low percentage pass trying to create
a scoring chance. I assume Benitez has changed his tactics to make an
aesthetically more attractive direct style after being criticized for
the defensive style he employed years ago, or maybe it is the
players?

>
> --
> /jussi
> Highly intelligent and well-informed people disagree on every political
> issue. Therefore, intelligence and knowledge are useless for
> making decisions, because if any of that stuff helped, then all the
> smart people would have the same opinions. So use your "gut instinct"
> to make voting choices. That is exactly like being clueless, but with
> the added advantage that you'll feel as if your random vote preserved
> democracy.
> *Scott Adams

From: Jussi Uosukainen on
Binder Dundat <dundat(a)gmail.com> wrote:

> Kuyt and Gerrard work hard as well but seem to lack the right final
> touch be it passing or shooting.
> Dietmar Hamman was a player who rarely made the 50 yard through pass
> but he rarely gave the ball away. I think they need someone like
> Hamman to retain possession make simple passes and slow things down
> instead of always looking for the low percentage pass trying to create
> a scoring chance. I assume Benitez has changed his tactics to make an
> aesthetically more attractive direct style after being criticized for
> the defensive style he employed years ago, or maybe it is the
> players?
>
Mascherano is playing very much the Hamann role, with a bit more passing
options and a lot more niggly fouls. Losing Alonso lost Liverpool that
ability to control possession with precise square passing, which was
very effective last season (the six red cards Alonso drew attest to
that).

Benitez also has played a more attacking style in 2009, now we just
don't have the personell to pull it off...
--
/jussi
"There is no hell. There is only France."
* Frank Zappa
From: Google Beta User on
On Nov 10, 12:25 pm, Binder Dundat <dun...(a)gmail.com> wrote:

> Dietmar Hamman was a player who rarely made the 50 yard through >pass but he rarely gave the ball away. I think they need someone like
> Hamman to retain possession make simple passes and slow things >down instead of always looking for the low percentage pass trying to >create a scoring chance.

Hmm......