From: Futbolmetrix on
Here's an attempt at a Bert Kassies-like ranking of South American (+
Mexican) clubs. Rules: only matches in the Copa Libertadores
(2005-2009) count (no Copa Sudamericana, no weight given to matches
played in the national leagues).

+---------------------------------------------------+
| year club cty trank |
|---------------------------------------------------|
1. | 2009 Sao Paulo BRA 103.187 |
2. | 2009 Boca Juniors ARG 77.447 |
3. | 2009 Santos BRA 64.187 |
4. | 2009 River Plate ARG 63.447 |
5. | 2009 Nacional Montevideo URU 61.900 |
|---------------------------------------------------|
6. | 2009 Estudiantes ARG 59.447 |
7. | 2009 Guadalajara MEX 59.267 |
8. | 2009 LDU Quito ECU 59.083 |
9. | 2009 Libertad PAR 55.300 |
10. | 2009 Gremio BRA 52.187 |
|---------------------------------------------------|
11. | 2009 Cruzeiro BRA 49.187 |
12. | 2009 Internacional BRA 45.187 |
13. | 2009 Palmeiras BRA 44.187 |
14. | 2009 Flamengo BRA 40.187 |
15. | 2009 Velez Sarsfield ARG 38.447 |
|---------------------------------------------------|
16. | 2009 Club America MEX 38.267 |
17. | 2009 Fluminense BRA 38.187 |
18. | 2009 Caracas VEN 37.467 |
19. | 2009 Tigres UANL MEX 36.267 |
20. | 2009 Atletico Paranaense BRA 35.187 |
|---------------------------------------------------|
21. | 2009 Cucuta Deportivo COL 32.633 |
22. | 2009 Banfield ARG 31.447 |
23. | 2009 San Lorenzo ARG 31.447 |
24. | 2009 Defensor Sporting URU 30.900 |
25. | 2009 Cerro Porteno PAR 30.300 |
|---------------------------------------------------|
26. | 2009 Colo Colo CHI 27.750 |
27. | 2009 Sport Recife BRA 26.187 |
28. | 2009 Goias BRA 25.187 |
29. | 2009 Deportivo Cuenca ECU 25.083 |
30. | 2009 Universidad de Chile CHI 24.750 |
|---------------------------------------------------|
31. | 2009 Lanus ARG 24.447 |
32. | 2009 Atlas MEX 24.267 |
33. | 2009 Corinthians BRA 24.187 |
34. | 2009 Parana BRA 22.187 |
35. | 2009 Atletico Nacional Medellin COL 21.633 |
|---------------------------------------------------|
36. | 2009 Toluca MEX 21.267 |
37. | 2009 Independiente Medellin COL 20.633 |
38. | 2009 Santo Andre BRA 20.187 |
39. | 2009 Universidad Catolica CHI 19.750 |
40. | 2009 Audax Italiano CHI 19.750 |
|---------------------------------------------------|
41. | 2009 Necaxa MEX 19.267 |
42. | 2009 Pachuca MEX 19.267 |
43. | 2009 Paulista BRA 19.187 |
44. | 2009 Newell's Old Boys ARG 18.447 |
45. | 2009 Cienciano PER 17.767 |
|---------------------------------------------------|
46. | 2009 San Luis MEX 17.267 |
47. | 2009 Santa Fe COL 16.633 |
48. | 2009 Arsenal ARG 16.447 |
49. | 2009 Gimnasia La Plata ARG 16.447 |
50. | 2009 Bolivar BOL 16.433 |
|---------------------------------------------------|
51. | 2009 Danubio URU 15.900 |
52. | 2009 America Cali` COL 15.633 |
53. | 2009 Once Caldas COL 15.633 |
54. | 2009 Universidad San Martin PER 14.767 |
55. | 2009 Junior Barranquilla COL 14.633 |
|---------------------------------------------------|
56. | 2009 Maracaibo VEN 14.467 |
57. | 2009 Quilmes ARG 14.447 |
58. | 2009 Rosario Central ARG 14.447 |
59. | 2009 BRAZIL BRA 14.187 |
60. | 2009 Sporting Cristal PER 13.767 |
|---------------------------------------------------|
61. | 2009 El Nacional ECU 13.083 |
62. | 2009 Deportivo Quito ECU 13.083 |
63. | 2009 Union Espanola CHI 12.750 |
64. | 2009 Cobreloa CHI 12.750 |
65. | 2009 Everton CHI 12.750 |
|---------------------------------------------------|
66. | 2009 Boyaca Chico COL 12.633 |
67. | 2009 Deportivo Tachira VEN 12.467 |
68. | 2009 Real Potosi BOL 12.433 |
69. | 2009 Sportivo Luqueno PAR 12.300 |
70. | 2009 Olmedo ECU 12.083 |
|---------------------------------------------------|
71. | 2009 Rocha URU 11.900 |
72. | 2009 Universitario PER 11.767 |
73. | 2009 Deportes Tolima COL 11.633 |
74. | 2009 The Strongest BOL 11.433 |
75. | 2009 UNAM MEX 11.267 |
|---------------------------------------------------|
76. | 2009 ARGENTINA ARG 10.447 |
77. | 2009 Club Nacional PAR 10.300 |
78. | 2009 MEXICO MEX 10.267 |
79. | 2009 Emelec ECU 9.083 |
80. | 2009 Guarani PAR 8.300 |
|---------------------------------------------------|
81. | 2009 URUGUAY URU 7.900 |
82. | 2009 Alianza Lima PER 7.767 |
83. | 2009 Deportivo Cali COL 7.633 |
84. | 2009 PARAGUAY PAR 7.300 |
85. | 2009 ECUADOR ECU 7.083 |
|---------------------------------------------------|
86. | 2009 CHILE CHI 6.750 |
87. | 2009 Deportivo Pasto COL 6.633 |
88. | 2009 COLOMBIA COL 6.633 |
89. | 2009 San Jose BOL 6.433 |
90. | 2009 Coronel Bolognesi PER 5.767 |
|---------------------------------------------------|
91. | 2009 Universitario de Sucre BOL 5.433 |
92. | 2009 VENEZUELA VEN 4.467 |
93. | 2009 PERU PER 3.767 |
94. | 2009 Aurora BOL 3.433 |
95. | 2009 BOLIVIA BOL 3.433 |
+---------------------------------------------------+

Fairly reasonable ranking, I would say. Next step: use this ranking to
redo the ranking of NTs at the WC.

D
From: milivella on
Futbolmetrix:

> Here's an attempt at a Bert Kassies-like ranking

Do you mean UEFA-like, or does he compute his own ranking?

> +---------------------------------------------------+
> | year club cty trank |
> |---------------------------------------------------|
> 1. | 2009 Sao Paulo BRA 103.187 |
> 2. | 2009 Boca Juniors ARG 77.447 |
> 3. | 2009 Santos BRA 64.187 |

Thanks for having done it. I guess it will be not only interesting per
se, but also useful for a bunch of projects.

> Fairly reasonable ranking, I would say.

Agreed.

> Next step: use this ranking to
> redo the ranking of NTs at the WC.

Great. But you still have the old problem: how many UEFA points does 1
CONMEBOL point equals to? I.e. is Sao Paulo (103 CONMEBOL) better or
worse than Inter (101 UEFA)? (BTW, it seems to me that you can just
consider CONMEBOL points as they are: 1 C... point = 1 UEFA point)

--
Cheers
milivella
From: Lleo on
On 24 maio, 21:05, milivella <milive...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> Futbolmetrix:
>
> > Here's an attempt at a Bert Kassies-like ranking
>
> Do you mean UEFA-like, or does he compute his own ranking?
>
> >     +---------------------------------------------------+
> >      | year                         club   cty     trank |
> >      |---------------------------------------------------|
> >   1. | 2009                    Sao Paulo   BRA   103.187 |
> >   2. | 2009                 Boca Juniors   ARG    77.447 |
> >   3. | 2009                       Santos   BRA    64.187 |
>
> Thanks for having done it. I guess it will be not only interesting per
> se, but also useful for a bunch of projects.
>
> > Fairly reasonable ranking, I would say.
>
> Agreed.

Indeed. But just a question, doesn't Bert Kassies's ranking also count
the UEFA Cup/Europa League? If so, I might try to compute the
Sudamericana results in this period if (1) there's any interest and
(2) you tell me how to do it :-)

> > Next step: use this ranking to
> > redo the ranking of NTs at the WC.
>
> Great. But you still have the old problem: how many UEFA points does 1
> CONMEBOL point equals to? I.e. is Sao Paulo (103 CONMEBOL) better or
> worse than Inter (101 UEFA)? (BTW, it seems to me that you can just
> consider CONMEBOL points as they are: 1 C... point = 1 UEFA point)
>

From 2005 to 2009, Europe has a 3-2 edge in the FIFA CWC, with no
blowouts for either side that I'm aware of. It may be only fair to
give them equal weight, or a slight edge to UEFA (60-40? 1 UEFA point
= 1.5 Conmebol point?)

--
Lléo
From: Jesus Petry on
On May 24, 6:03 pm, Futbolmetrix <futbolmet...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> Here's an attempt at a Bert Kassies-like ranking of South American (+
> Mexican) clubs. Rules: only matches in the Copa Libertadores
> (2005-2009) count (no Copa Sudamericana, no weight given to matches
> played in the national leagues).

Very interesting. I thought of doing this for a while but didn't know
how to treat the special case of Copa Sudamericana, which
theoretically can be won by a team that won the Libertadores in the
same year. You've solved it by scratching it out altogether, a
decision that I can live with, although in my ranking I count
Sudamericana only from the quarterfinals on.

Questions:

- Did you consider the preliminary phases (before group stage)?
- How are the bonus points for advancing phases?

>     +---------------------------------------------------+
>      | year                         club   cty     trank |
>      |---------------------------------------------------|
>   1. | 2009                    Sao Paulo   BRA   103.187 |

Pretty much expected. The only team from the top two countries to
play all five editions.

>   2. | 2009                 Boca Juniors   ARG    77.447 |

This one was expected too.

>   3. | 2009                       Santos   BRA    64.187 |
>   4. | 2009                  River Plate   ARG    63.447 |

Didn't expect these two to be so high.

>   5. | 2009          Nacional Montevideo   URU    61.900 |
>      |---------------------------------------------------|
>   6. | 2009                  Estudiantes   ARG    59.447 |
>   7. | 2009                  Guadalajara   MEX    59.267 |

When Chivas are in Libertadores they go far.

>   8. | 2009                    LDU Quito   ECU    59.083 |
>   9. | 2009                     Libertad   PAR    55.300 |
>  10. | 2009                       Gremio   BRA    52.187 |
>      |---------------------------------------------------|
>  11. | 2009                     Cruzeiro   BRA    49.187 |
>  12. | 2009                Internacional   BRA    45.187 |

The first thing I've noticed: *them* ahead of *us*! How? Then I
remembered they've reached a final and a semi and that this year is
not counted yet (we have already overtaken them).

>  13. | 2009                    Palmeiras   BRA    44.187 |
>  14. | 2009                     Flamengo   BRA    40.187 |
>  15. | 2009              Velez Sarsfield   ARG    38.447 |
>      |---------------------------------------------------|
>  16. | 2009                 Club America   MEX    38.267 |
>  17. | 2009                   Fluminense   BRA    38.187 |
>  18. | 2009                      Caracas   VEN    37.467 |
>  19. | 2009                  Tigres UANL   MEX    36.267 |
>  20. | 2009          Atletico Paranaense   BRA    35.187 |
>      |---------------------------------------------------|
>  21. | 2009             Cucuta Deportivo   COL    32.633 |
>  22. | 2009                     Banfield   ARG    31.447 |
>  23. | 2009                  San Lorenzo   ARG    31.447 |
>  24. | 2009            Defensor Sporting   URU    30.900 |
>  25. | 2009                Cerro Porteno   PAR    30.300 |
>      |---------------------------------------------------|
>  26. | 2009                    Colo Colo   CHI    27.750 |
>  27. | 2009                 Sport Recife   BRA    26.187 |
>  28. | 2009                        Goias   BRA    25.187 |
>  29. | 2009             Deportivo Cuenca   ECU    25.083 |
>  30. | 2009         Universidad de Chile   CHI    24.750 |
>      |---------------------------------------------------|
>  31. | 2009                        Lanus   ARG    24.447 |
>  32. | 2009                        Atlas   MEX    24.267 |
>  33. | 2009                  Corinthians   BRA    24.187 |
>  34. | 2009                       Parana   BRA    22.187 |
>  35. | 2009   Atletico Nacional Medellin   COL    21.633 |
>      |---------------------------------------------------|
>  36. | 2009                       Toluca   MEX    21.267 |
>  37. | 2009       Independiente Medellin   COL    20.633 |
>  38. | 2009                  Santo Andre   BRA    20.187 |
>  39. | 2009         Universidad Catolica   CHI    19.750 |
>  40. | 2009               Audax Italiano   CHI    19.750 |
>      |---------------------------------------------------|
>  41. | 2009                       Necaxa   MEX    19.267 |
>  42. | 2009                      Pachuca   MEX    19.267 |
>  43. | 2009                     Paulista   BRA    19.187 |
>  44. | 2009            Newell's Old Boys   ARG    18.447 |
>  45. | 2009                    Cienciano   PER    17.767 |
>      |---------------------------------------------------|
>  46. | 2009                     San Luis   MEX    17.267 |
>  47. | 2009                     Santa Fe   COL    16.633 |
>  48. | 2009                      Arsenal   ARG    16.447 |
>  49. | 2009            Gimnasia La Plata   ARG    16.447 |
>  50. | 2009                      Bolivar   BOL    16.433 |
>      |---------------------------------------------------|
>  51. | 2009                      Danubio   URU    15.900 |
>  52. | 2009                America Cali`   COL    15.633 |
>  53. | 2009                  Once Caldas   COL    15.633 |
>  54. | 2009       Universidad San Martin   PER    14.767 |
>  55. | 2009          Junior Barranquilla   COL    14.633 |
>      |---------------------------------------------------|
>  56. | 2009                    Maracaibo   VEN    14.467 |
>  57. | 2009                      Quilmes   ARG    14.447 |
>  58. | 2009              Rosario Central   ARG    14.447 |
>  59. | 2009                       BRAZIL   BRA    14.187 |
>  60. | 2009             Sporting Cristal   PER    13.767 |
>      |---------------------------------------------------|
>  61. | 2009                  El Nacional   ECU    13.083 |
>  62. | 2009              Deportivo Quito   ECU    13.083 |
>  63. | 2009               Union Espanola   CHI    12.750 |
>  64. | 2009                     Cobreloa   CHI    12.750 |
>  65. | 2009                      Everton   CHI    12.750 |
>      |---------------------------------------------------|
>  66. | 2009                 Boyaca Chico   COL    12.633 |
>  67. | 2009            Deportivo Tachira   VEN    12.467 |
>  68. | 2009                  Real Potosi   BOL    12.433 |
>  69. | 2009             Sportivo Luqueno   PAR    12.300 |
>  70. | 2009                       Olmedo   ECU    12.083 |
>      |---------------------------------------------------|
>  71. | 2009                        Rocha   URU    11.900 |
>  72. | 2009                Universitario   PER    11.767 |
>  73. | 2009              Deportes Tolima   COL    11.633 |
>  74. | 2009                The Strongest   BOL    11.433 |
>  75. | 2009                         UNAM   MEX    11.267 |
>      |---------------------------------------------------|
>  76. | 2009                    ARGENTINA   ARG    10.447 |
>  77. | 2009                Club Nacional   PAR    10.300 |
>  78. | 2009                       MEXICO   MEX    10.267 |
>  79. | 2009                       Emelec   ECU     9.083 |
>  80. | 2009                      Guarani   PAR     8.300 |
>      |---------------------------------------------------|
>  81. | 2009                      URUGUAY   URU     7.900 |
>  82. | 2009                 Alianza Lima   PER     7.767 |
>  83. | 2009               Deportivo Cali   COL     7.633 |
>  84. | 2009                     PARAGUAY   PAR     7.300 |
>  85. | 2009                      ECUADOR   ECU     7.083 |
>      |---------------------------------------------------|
>  86. | 2009                        CHILE   CHI     6.750 |
>  87. | 2009              Deportivo Pasto   COL     6.633 |
>  88. | 2009                     COLOMBIA   COL     6.633 |
>  89. | 2009                     San Jose   BOL     6.433 |
>  90. | 2009            Coronel Bolognesi   PER     5.767 |
>      |---------------------------------------------------|
>  91. | 2009       Universitario de Sucre   BOL     5.433 |
>  92. | 2009                    VENEZUELA   VEN     4.467 |
>  93. | 2009                         PERU   PER     3.767 |
>  94. | 2009                       Aurora   BOL     3.433 |
>  95. | 2009                      BOLIVIA   BOL     3.433 |
>      +---------------------------------------------------+
>
> Fairly reasonable ranking, I would say. Next step: use this ranking to
> redo the ranking of NTs at the WC.

Would you consider giving a few points for the last stage of Copa
Sudamericana?

Tchau!
Jesus Petry
From: Futbolmetrix on
On May 25, 3:05 am, milivella <milive...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> Futbolmetrix:
>
> > Here's an attempt at a Bert Kassies-like ranking
>
> Do you mean UEFA-like, or does he compute his own ranking?

I suspect that UEFA actually copies its ranking from Bert ;-)


> Great. But you still have the old problem: how many UEFA points does 1
> CONMEBOL point equals to? I.e. is Sao Paulo (103 CONMEBOL) better or
> worse than Inter (101 UEFA)? (BTW, it seems to me that you can just
> consider CONMEBOL points as they are: 1 C... point = 1 UEFA point)

Libertadores has one fewer round, so that automatically downweights
the achievements of SA teams. If you use a 1:1 ratio it implies that
Sao Paulo equals to approximately the 8th best team in Europe, i.e.,
it would be a top seed in the CL group stage, and would be expected to
advance to the knockout round almost every year. Boca would be ranked
around 15-16 (in the Porto-Shakhtar Donetsk range). There's a cluster
of other Brazilian big names around the 10th position in SA with a
rating between 52 and 40: they'd be equivalent to Stuttgart, Steaua,
Everton, Lille, Bayer Leverkusen, Galatasaray.

My sense is that the ranking of the top teams is about right, but then
the second tier SA teams should be slightly higher. But that's
probably because the Kassies/UEFA ranking give too much weight to the
UEFA Cup/Europa League

In any case, for the calculation of the NT rankings, the weight chosen
has almost no effect whatsoever. Not very surprising given that about
70% of the players selected for the WC play in Europe.

D