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From: Futbolmetrix on 25 May 2010 11:07
On May 25, 5:02 am, Lleo <lleo...(a)lycos.com> wrote:
>
> Indeed. But just a question, doesn't Bert Kassies's ranking also count
> the UEFA Cup/Europa League? If so, I might try to compute the
> Sudamericana results in this period if (1) there's any interest and
> (2) you tell me how to do it :-)

Jesus mentions that the Sudamericana has a funny structure. It may
make more sense to calculate the UEFA rankings suing only CL matches.

>
> From 2005 to 2009, Europe has a 3-2 edge in the FIFA CWC, with no
> blowouts for either side that I'm aware of. It may be only fair to
> give them equal weight, or a slight edge to UEFA (60-40? 1 UEFA point
> = 1.5 Conmebol point?)

In the end I went for a 1:1 ratio (see the other post), but it barely
makes a difference.

D

From: Futbolmetrix on 25 May 2010 11:17
On May 25, 5:28 pm, Jesus Petry <jesuspe...(a)pop.com.br> wrote:
> On May 24, 6:03 pm, Futbolmetrix <futbolmet...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Here's an attempt at a Bert Kassies-like ranking of South American (+
> > Mexican) clubs. Rules: only matches in the Copa Libertadores
> > (2005-2009) count (no Copa Sudamericana, no weight given to matches
> > played in the national leagues).
>
>  Very interesting. I thought of doing this for a while but didn't know
> how to treat the special case of Copa Sudamericana, which
> theoretically can be won by a team that won the Libertadores in the
> same year.

But then the UEFA Cup / Europa League can also be won (and often is)
by a CL dropout. The reason I didn't do the Sudamericana is pure
laziness.


> You've solved it by scratching it out altogether, a
> decision that I can live with, although in my ranking I count
> Sudamericana only from the quarterfinals on.
>
>  Questions:
>
>  - Did you consider the preliminary phases (before group stage)?

No. Probably should have. Laziness again.

>  - How are the bonus points for advancing phases?

1 point for each round advanced, no bonus points for winning the
final.
And two points per win, as in the Kassies/UEFA rankings.


> >     +---------------------------------------------------+
> >      | year                         club   cty     trank |
> >      |---------------------------------------------------|
> >   1. | 2009                    Sao Paulo   BRA   103.187 |
>
>  Pretty much expected. The only team from the top two countries to
> play all five editions.

And I guess they'll be extending their lead this year.


> >   2. | 2009                 Boca Juniors   ARG    77.447 |
>
>  This one was expected too.
>
> >   3. | 2009                       Santos   BRA    64.187 |
> >   4. | 2009                  River Plate   ARG    63.447 |
>
>  Didn't expect these two to be so high.


Hasn't River been on the verge of relegation in the Argentinian
league? That's the problem with these rankings: they only weight
international competition. The European rankings have the same
problem. One unnameable team from a large city in Northern Italy has
just overtaken its cross-town rivals, even though it's pretty clear
who has been the best between the two in the past 4 years.


>
>  Would you consider giving a few points for the last stage of Copa
> Sudamericana?

A possibility.

D
From: Jesus Petry on 25 May 2010 11:38
On May 25, 12:17 pm, Futbolmetrix <futbolmet...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> On May 25, 5:28 pm, Jesus Petry <jesuspe...(a)pop.com.br> wrote:
> > On May 24, 6:03 pm, Futbolmetrix <futbolmet...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> >  Questions:
>
> >  - Did you consider the preliminary phases (before group stage)?
>
> No. Probably should have. Laziness again.

I can live with that too. It's only important in Europe because
otherwise many countries would get no points.

> >  - How are the bonus points for advancing phases?
>
> 1 point for each round advanced, no bonus points for winning the
> final.
> And two points per win, as in the Kassies/UEFA rankings.

In South America, a bonus for winning the finals might be a good
idea, since a team might win on GD (say, 4-0 and 1-2) and get as many
points as the runner-up.

> > >     +---------------------------------------------------+
> > >      | year                         club   cty     trank |
> > >      |---------------------------------------------------|
> > >   1. | 2009                    Sao Paulo   BRA   103.187 |
>
> >  Pretty much expected. The only team from the top two countries to
> > play all five editions.
>
> And I guess they'll be extending their lead this year.

Maybe not much, because they'll lose 2005 points, and they won that
year.

> > >   4. | 2009                  River Plate   ARG    63.447 |
>
> >  Didn't expect these two to be so high.
>
> Hasn't River been on the verge of relegation in the Argentinian
> league? That's the problem with these rankings: they only weight
> international competition. The European rankings have the same
> problem. One unnameable team from a large city in Northern Italy has
> just overtaken its cross-town rivals, even though it's pretty clear
> who has been the best between the two in the past 4 years.

River will have to fight for the title to avoid relegation in the
next season. Their average is bad and they'll lose the best part of
it.

> >  Would you consider giving a few points for the last stage of Copa
> > Sudamericana?
>
> A possibility.

I'd suggest from quarterfinals on, since the previous phases in
recent years involved teams who were invited (Boca and River) and some
internal country phases exist just for the TV money. The last eight
are usually much more into the competition.

Tchau!
Jesus Petry
From: Jesus Petry on 25 May 2010 17:57
On May 25, 12:38 pm, Jesus Petry <jesuspe...(a)pop.com.br> wrote:
> On May 25, 12:17 pm, Futbolmetrix <futbolmet...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On May 25, 5:28 pm, Jesus Petry <jesuspe...(a)pop.com.br> wrote:
> > >  Would you consider giving a few points for the last stage of Copa
> > > Sudamericana?
>
> > A possibility.
>
>  I'd suggest from quarterfinals on, since the previous phases in
> recent years involved teams who were invited (Boca and River) and some
> internal country phases exist just for the TV money. The last eight
> are usually much more into the competition.

I couldn't resist and applied Kassies'/UEFA's bonus for the 2004-2009
period and added the results from Copa Sudamericana counting only from
the quarterfinals on (and 1 point for being in the Libertadores
preliminary round):

Same period (2005-2009)
1 São Paulo FC BRA 115.247
2 Boca Juniors ARG 101.251
3 River Plate Buenos Aires ARG 85.251
4 LDU Quito ECU 84.453
5 Chivas Guadalajara MEX 78.347
6 Estudiantes La Plata ARG 78.251
7 Nacional Montevideo URU 73.280
8 Santos FC BRA 70.247
9 Internacional BRA 68.247
10 Libertad Asunción PAR 67.920
11 América de México MEX 56.347
12 Grêmio BRA 55.247
13 Fluminense BRA 53.247
14 Vélez Sarsfield ARG 52.251
15 Caracas FC VEN 51.440
16 Cruzeiro BRA 51.247
17 Palmeiras BRA 51.247
18 Colo Colo CHL 49.640
19 San Lorenzo de Almagro ARG 45.251
20 Cerro Porteño PAR 43.920
21 Flamengo BRA 43.247
22 Tigres UANL MEX 42.347
23 Atlético Paranaense BRA 41.247
24 Defensor Sporting URU 38.280
25 Cúcuta Deportivo COL 37.913
26 Pachuca CF MEX 37.347
27 CA Banfield ARG 36.251
28 Deportivo Cuenca ECU 33.453
29 Universidad de Chile CHL 31.640
30 CA Lanús ARG 31.251
31 Universidad Católica CHL 29.640
32 Arsenal Sarandí ARG 29.251
33 Toluca MEX 28.347
34 Cienciano Cuzco PER 27.520
35 Atlas Guadalajara MEX 27.347
36 Corinthians BRA 27.247
37 Atlético Nacional COL 26.913
38 Sport Recife BRA 26.247
39 Independiente Medellín COL 25.913
40 Goiás EC BRA 25.247
41 Bolívar La Paz BOL 24.800
42 Audax Italiano CHL 24.640
43 Pumas UNAM MEX 24.347
44 Unión Maracaibo VEN 22.440
45 Necaxa MEX 22.347
46 Paraná Clube BRA 22.247
47 Sporting Cristal PER 21.520
48 América de Cali COL 20.913
49 Universidad San Martín PER 20.520
50 San Luis MEX 20.347
51 Danubio Montevideo URU 20.280
52 Newell's Old Boys ARG 20.251
53 Santo André EC BRA 20.247
54 Deportivo Táchira VEN 19.440
55 Gimnasia y Esgrima LP ARG 19.251
56 Paulista Jundiaí BRA 19.247
57 Independiente Santa Fe COL 18.913
58 Real Potosí BOL 18.800
59 El Nacional Quito ECU 18.453
60 Once Caldas COL 17.913
61 Universitario Lima PER 17.520
62 Junior Barranquilla COL 16.913
63 The Strongest La Paz BOL 16.800
64 Argentinos Juniors ARG 16.251
65 Quilmes AC ARG 16.251
66 Rosario Central ARG 16.251
67 Boyacá Chicó COL 15.913
68 Cobreloa CHL 15.640
69 Everton Viña del Mar CHL 14.640
70 Unión Española CHL 14.640
71 Olmedo Riobamba ECU 14.453
72 Deportivo Quito ECU 14.453
73 Botafogo Rio BRA 14.247
74 Vasco da Gama BRA 14.247
75 Deportes Tolima COL 13.913
76 Alianza Lima PER 13.520
77 Sportivo Luqueño PAR 12.920
78 Rocha FC URU 12.280
79 Nacional Asunción PAR 11.920
80 Millonarios Bogotá COL 11.913
81 River Plate Montevideo URU 11.280
82 Emelec ECU 10.453
83 Deportivo Cali COL 9.913
84 Guaraní Asunción PAR 8.920
85 Deportivo Pasto COL 8.913
86 San José Oruro BOL 8.800
87 Coronel Bolognesi PER 8.520
88 Universitario de Sucre BOL 7.800
89 Peñarol URU 7.280
90 Tacuary Asunción PAR 6.920
91 Montevideo Wanderers URU 6.280
92 Aurora Cochabamba BOL 5.800
93 Mineros de Guayana VEN 5.440
94 Oriente Petrolero BOL 4.800
95 Deportivo Anzoátegui VEN 4.440
96 Blooming BOL 3.800
97 La Paz FC BOL 3.800
BRAZIL BRA 56.233
MEXICO MEX 51.733
ARGENTINA ARG 46.256
COLOMBIA COL 29.567
CHILE CHL 28.200
ECUADOR ECU 27.267
URUGUAY URU 26.400
PARAGUAY PAR 24.600
PERU PER 17.600
VENEZUELA VEN 17.200
BOLIVIA BOL 14.000

 Tchau!
 Jesus Petry
From: Jesus Petry on 26 May 2010 11:37
On May 25, 6:57 pm, Jesus Petry <jesuspe...(a)pop.com.br> wrote:
> On May 25, 12:38 pm, Jesus Petry <jesuspe...(a)pop.com.br> wrote:
>
> > On May 25, 12:17 pm, Futbolmetrix <futbolmet...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > On May 25, 5:28 pm, Jesus Petry <jesuspe...(a)pop.com.br> wrote:
> > > >  Would you consider giving a few points for the last stage of Copa
> > > > Sudamericana?
>
> > > A possibility.
>
> >  I'd suggest from quarterfinals on, since the previous phases in
> > recent years involved teams who were invited (Boca and River) and some
> > internal country phases exist just for the TV money. The last eight
> > are usually much more into the competition.
>
>  I couldn't resist and applied Kassies'/UEFA's bonus for the 2004-2009
> period and added the results from Copa Sudamericana counting only from
> the quarterfinals on (and 1 point for being in the Libertadores
> preliminary round):
>
>  Same period (2005-2009)
>  1 São Paulo FC              BRA  115.247
>  2 Boca Juniors              ARG  101.251
>  3 River Plate Buenos Aires  ARG   85.251
>  4 LDU Quito                 ECU   84.453
>  5 Chivas Guadalajara        MEX   78.347
>  6 Estudiantes La Plata      ARG   78.251
>  7 Nacional Montevideo       URU   73.280
>  8 Santos FC                 BRA   70.247
>  9 Internacional             BRA   68.247
> 10 Libertad Asunción         PAR   67.920
<snip>

And here is the current ranking (2006-2010):
1 São Paulo FC BRA 106.069
2 Estudiantes La Plata ARG 97.807
3 Nacional Montevideo URU 84.320
4 Internacional BRA 84.069
5 Libertad Asunción PAR 79.000
6 Boca Juniors ARG 71.807
7 LDU Quito ECU 71.413
8 Cruzeiro BRA 68.069
9 River Plate Buenos Aires ARG 62.807
10 Vélez Sarsfield ARG 59.807
11 Flamengo BRA 59.069
12 Chivas Guadalajara MEX 58.667
13 América de México MEX 56.667
14 Colo Colo CHL 56.520
15 Grêmio BRA 55.069
16 Santos FC BRA 55.069
17 Caracas FC VEN 50.760
18 Fluminense BRA 50.069
19 Defensor Sporting URU 41.320
20 Corinthians BRA 41.069
21 Palmeiras BRA 40.069
22 CA Lanús ARG 39.807
23 San Lorenzo de Almagro ARG 38.807
24 Universidad de Chile CHL 37.520
25 Cúcuta Deportivo COL 36.480
26 Cerro Porteño PAR 33.000
27 Universidad Católica CHL 32.520
28 Deportivo Cuenca ECU 32.413
29 Universitario Lima PER 32.280
30 CA Banfield ARG 31.807
31 Toluca MEX 29.667
32 Arsenal Sarandí ARG 28.807
33 Atlas Guadalajara MEX 28.667
34 Cienciano Cuzco PER 27.280
35 Pachuca CF MEX 26.667
36 Sport Recife BRA 26.069
37 Atlético Nacional COL 25.480
38 Goiás EC BRA 25.069
39 Tigres UANL MEX 24.667
40 Necaxa MEX 23.667
41 Audax Italiano CHL 23.520
42 Deportivo Quito ECU 23.413
43 Unión Maracaibo VEN 22.760
44 Bolívar La Paz BOL 22.160
45 Paraná Clube BRA 22.069
46 San Luis MEX 21.667
47 Independiente Medellín COL 21.480
48 Universidad San Martín PER 21.280
49 Newell's Old Boys ARG 20.807
50 Alianza Lima PER 20.280
51 Monterrey MEX 19.667
52 Real Potosí BOL 19.160
53 Paulista Jundiaí BRA 19.069
54 Gimnasia y Esgrima LP ARG 18.807
55 Monarcas Morelia MEX 18.667
56 Independiente Santa Fe COL 17.480
57 Once Caldas COL 17.480
58 El Nacional Quito ECU 17.413
59 Racing Montevideo URU 17.320
60 Cerro Montevideo URU 17.320
61 Atlético Paranaense BRA 17.069
62 Nacional Asunción PAR 16.000
63 Argentinos Juniors ARG 15.807
64 Rosario Central ARG 15.807
65 Deportivo Táchira VEN 15.760
66 Pumas UNAM MEX 15.667
67 Danubio Montevideo URU 15.320
68 Rocha FC URU 15.320
69 Boyacá Chicó COL 14.480
70 Emelec ECU 14.413
71 River Plate Montevideo URU 14.320
72 Sporting Cristal PER 14.280
73 Botafogo Rio BRA 14.069
74 Vasco da Gama BRA 14.069
75 Everton Viña del Mar CHL 13.520
76 Unión Española CHL 13.520
77 Estudiantes Tecos MEX 12.667
78 Deportes Tolima COL 12.480
79 Sportivo Luqueño PAR 12.000
80 Juan Aurich PER 11.280
81 Santo André EC BRA 11.069
82 América de Cali COL 10.480
83 Millonarios Bogotá COL 10.480
84 Colón Santa Fe ARG 9.807
85 Montevideo Wanderers URU 9.320
86 Peñarol URU 9.320
87 Coronel Bolognesi PER 9.280
88 The Strongest La Paz BOL 9.160
89 Quilmes AC ARG 8.807
90 Deportivo Cali COL 8.480
91 San José Oruro BOL 8.160
92 Guaraní Asunción PAR 8.000
93 Deportivo Italia VEN 7.760
94 Deportivo Pasto COL 7.480
95 Blooming BOL 7.160
96 Universitario de Sucre BOL 7.160
97 Cobreloa CHL 5.520
98 Junior Barranquilla COL 5.480
99 Olmedo Riobamba ECU 5.413
100 Aurora Cochabamba BOL 5.160
101 Tacuary Asunción PAR 5.000
102 Deportivo Anzoátegui VEN 4.760
103 Mineros de Guayana VEN 4.760
104 Oriente Petrolero BOL 3.160
105 La Paz FC BOL 3.160
BRAZIL BRA 55.344
ARGENTINA ARG 43.033
MEXICO MEX 42.333
CHILE CHL 28.933
URUGUAY URU 28.767
COLOMBIA COL 26.067
ECUADOR ECU 25.567
PARAGUAY PAR 24.833
PERU PER 20.067
VENEZUELA VEN 16.467
BOLIVIA BOL 12.633

 Tchau!
 Jesus Petry
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