From: Sven Mischkies on
On Apr 13, 12:21 pm, b...(a)ipp-garching.mpg.de (Bruce D. Scott) wrote:
> MH (MHnos...(a)ucalgary.ca) wrote:
>
> : Bruce D. Scott wrote:
> : > Sven Mischkies (hs...(a)der-ball-ist-rund.net) wrote:
> : > : <http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/apr/11/bundesliga-premier-
> : > : league>
> : >
> : > The key to this is the strong regime of control by the league.  If the
> : > various "let the free market decide" proposals we get every year or two
> : > ever get their way, the BLiga will go the way of other leagues.
>
> : That is true.
> : Also true is that the stadium building/renovation binge of the last
> : couple of decades has certainly helped attendances.  They were nowhere
> : near as high in my day, and couldn't have come close for teams like
> : Gladbach. Plus big draws like Hertha, Schalke and a few others were in
> : the second league for part of that time , too, whereas we had teams like
> : Uerdingen, Mannheim etc. with low attendances.
>
> I forget, was that late 80s or early 90s?  I arrived 1988.
> Nevertheless, Bayern averaged around 20k and for bigger matches (EF or
> HSV for example) it was about 50k, so I could always get a ticket.
> Something happened circa 85-92 or so.  My friends told me things used to
> be ugly between fans but it really calmed down, and it was not clear
> why.  Maybe this had something to do with attendances.  In the end run
> of the 93/94 season it started getting really hard to get tickets, and
> that Fall was probably the last time I could have managed to get a
> season ticket.  But luckily I did manage.  Nowadays it is very hard, and
> away tickets are impossible for Bayern.


Hooliganism was I think the main factor for the attendances falling
through the 60s and 70s to their low point in the 80s.

IMHO there were 3 factors that led to higher attendances since the
80s:
- no hooliganism in the Bundesliga anymore, you could go to Bundesliga
games without expecting trouble, i.e. you could bring your kids and
friends, and even the girl friend. Today there are far more women at
games than in the 80s.
- private TV populism created a big buzz that made football more
popular with most parts of society
- new, safe stadiums with much better views (no track) and athmosphere
(with roof).

HSV increased the average attendance almost every season since 1992 or
so. First only because of the first two points, since 2000 because of
the new, exciting stadium.


Ciao,
SM
From: MH on
Bruce D. Scott wrote:
> MH (MHnospam(a)ucalgary.ca) wrote:
> : Bruce D. Scott wrote:
> : > Sven Mischkies (hsv83(a)der-ball-ist-rund.net) wrote:
> : > : <http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/apr/11/bundesliga-premier-
> : > : league>
> : >
> : > The key to this is the strong regime of control by the league. If the
> : > various "let the free market decide" proposals we get every year or two
> : > ever get their way, the BLiga will go the way of other leagues.
>
> : That is true.
> : Also true is that the stadium building/renovation binge of the last
> : couple of decades has certainly helped attendances. They were nowhere
> : near as high in my day, and couldn't have come close for teams like
> : Gladbach. Plus big draws like Hertha, Schalke and a few others were in
> : the second league for part of that time , too, whereas we had teams like
> : Uerdingen, Mannheim etc. with low attendances.
>
> I forget, was that late 80s or early 90s?

Early to mid 80s.


I arrived 1988.
> Nevertheless, Bayern averaged around 20k and for bigger matches (EF or
> HSV for example) it was about 50k, so I could always get a ticket.
> Something happened circa 85-92 or so. My friends told me things used to
> be ugly between fans but it really calmed down, and it was not clear
> why.

Hooligansim was not a problem in Bielefeld, but I sensed that it might
have been elsewhere (eg when I went to away games in Dortmund, the
police presence was heavy and a bit in your face for a naive Canadian.)

Attendance in Bielefeld in those days was in the high teens to low
twenties on average, but sold out (30 K) for big games vs. Bayern, HSV,
etc. Recent Arminia BL attendances have not been much better, but I
think that is at least partially due to renovations at the Alm that
reduced the amount of terrace and increased seating.

Maybe this had something to do with attendances. In the end run
> of the 93/94 season it started getting really hard to get tickets, and
> that Fall was probably the last time I could have managed to get a
> season ticket. But luckily I did manage. Nowadays it is very hard, and
> away tickets are impossible for Bayern.
>
> Apropos cheap BLiga tickets? Before the Euro they were a factor of two
> cheaper in many places than they are now. Of course, new stadiums. But
> it's also about 2 DM per Euro :-)
>

I used to pay 7 DM per match as a student, I think. Perfect view of the
match standing about 10 rows back on the centre line. Dortmund was even
cheaper for students, but that was behind the goal (also covered, though
,which most of the Alm was not.


> --
> ciao,
> Bruce
>
> drift wave turbulence: http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/
From: Bruce D. Scott on
Sven Mischkies (hsv83(a)der-ball-ist-rund.net) wrote:

: Hooliganism was I think the main factor for the attendances falling
: through the 60s and 70s to their low point in the 80s.

That was my impression too and from what I was told.

: - private TV populism created a big buzz that made football more
: popular with most parts of society

The TV buzz really mattered, from WC94 to Euro96.

In our case, the average went up about 10 or 15K when we signed
Klinsmann (and enough shirts got sold to pay his transfer and his
salary), which coincided with this.

: - new, safe stadiums with much better views (no track) and athmosphere
: (with roof).

This adds to it, so the potential sales would average several 10k's more
than the capacity.

: HSV increased the average attendance almost every season since 1992 or
: so. First only because of the first two points, since 2000 because of
: the new, exciting stadium.

It's a better scene in almost every respect. Only the Ultras are really
against it.

Now, if we could only get rid of smoking once and for all :-)

--
ciao,
Bruce

drift wave turbulence: http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/
From: Bruce D. Scott on
MH (MHnospam(a)ucalgary.ca) wrote:

: I used to pay 7 DM per match as a student, I think. Perfect view of the
: match standing about 10 rows back on the centre line. Dortmund was even
: cheaper for students, but that was behind the goal (also covered, though
: ,which most of the Alm was not.

Wow, I had that at the Estadio da Luz (1987/88), mainly because the
attendance averaged 50k or a bit more, with a capacity of 120k. The
exception was the European Semifinal, in which over 30k false tickets
were around and at least 10k with real tickets didn't get in :-)

--
ciao,
Bruce

drift wave turbulence: http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/
From: Sven Mischkies on
On Apr 13, 5:05 pm, b...(a)ipp-garching.mpg.de (Bruce D. Scott) wrote:
> MH (MHnos...(a)ucalgary.ca) wrote:
>
> : I used to pay 7 DM per match as a student, I think.  Perfect view of the
> : match standing about 10 rows back on the centre line. Dortmund was even
> : cheaper for students, but that was behind the goal (also covered, though
> : ,which most of the Alm was not.
>
> Wow, I had that at the Estadio da Luz (1987/88), mainly because the
> attendance averaged 50k or a bit more, with a capacity of 120k.  The
> exception was the European Semifinal, in which over 30k false tickets
> were around and at least 10k with real tickets didn't get in :-)


My first season ticket at HSV was in 1997/8 as a student, IIRC. DM 65.
Less than 4 DM/2 Euro/ 2 Pound per game. :)


Ciao,
SM
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