From: Ll�o on 5 Jul 2010 23:00
"Cl�ment" <lcmello.listas(a)terra.com.br> escreveu na mensagem
> "Ll�o" escreveu:
>> "Cl�ment" escreveu:
>>> Exactly. Except Scolari is now widely seen as our one and true saviour,
>>> if we hope to have any chances in 2014. ;)
>> "O tecnico que n�o tem medo de craque", said o Globo in its saturday
>> headline. How grand is that? I remember the whiny articles on how all
>> Scolari wanted was "a family, not a team", how "Garrincha would never
>> play for him", Socrates saying that "even China will beat this Brasilian
>> team"... well, let's not get started.
> The level of thinking and debate in our press is abysmal. I'm not talking
> about the sensationalism and the agenda before and after the World Cup.
> This happens everywhere. The problem is that the actual issues the NT has
> to tackle, and has to tackle fast, will be obfuscated by the smoke from
> the press vendetta against Dunga (with the exception of a few journalists
> here and there).
Which issues do you have in mind? Things like the renewing of the team, or
the lack of WCQ that will have to be replaced by friendlies in 2012/2013?
>> But I have no intention of keep reading tomorrow to find that out...
> Wise decision. =) This is what I am doing for a long time, weeks before
> the WC, even.
>> I wasn't even bothering anymore at all, due to the Flamengo-loving nature
>> of their usual coverage, but for the WC... well, if there's a positive to
>> observe, it was Luis Fernando Verissimo's columns. Always a great read.
> What's his take on it? Maybe he's more sympathetic to Dunga, being an
> Inter fan and all? ;)
I don't have the saturday edition handy, but I don't recall any attack on
Dunga - or at least none at the level observed elsewhere in the paper. IIRC,
he commented on how sad the fans were and moved on to the other games.
>> Well... sorry for the rant, had to get it off my system. There is already
>> a list of candidates for replacement, including Luiz Felipe Scolari, Mano
>> Menezes, Ricardo Gomes and Leonardo. I hope it's one of the first two,
>> preferably Scolari. Since there's a friendly with the US in early August,
>> we'll soon find out.
> The NT had clear needs after 2006, and those have been fully addressed by
> Dunga and his staff. Despite the disappointing loss, I felt these guys
> actually deserved better (well, except maybe the kickboxer Felipe Melo),
> so they should keep their heads up.
> It's a very different situation from 2006, in which the team's attitude
> was very poor, and the team selection was atrocious. Dunga's selection had
> some flaws, one or two of them very serious, but it's funny how the
> previous one was terribly worse, and yet very few accuse Parreira of it,
> since he took all the big names. Our line-up for game 3 against Japan, in
> which some players were rested, was ironically the closest to the
> strongest line-up we were able to field back then.
As you say, it is one thing to lose with the big names, quite another to
lose without them. And I would add, the level of talent (or "star" players)
available to Dunga now was not as high as the one available to Parreira in
> As I wrote here before the WC, we need a new team. That's not because we
> lost, we would have to renew the players even if we had won, because many
> players will be either old or past it for 2014.
> The best moment to start doing that is now. Considering this, I agree
> Scolari is the best choice. He's proven, he's respected by pretty much
> everyone (CBF, the press, the players, the people). We will need to
> test/prove a full roster of new players. We don't need to be
> testing/proving the coach as well.
Quite agreed. I just read an interview by Ricardo Teixeira saying that he
wants an at least five-year long project (possibly six - from 2013 to 2016
Brasil will host football tournaments, and there's Copa America 2011 and the
Olympics 2012, for what the latter is worth). Younger players will be given
a chance, and he said that "the CBF structure, fans, press and I will have
to be patient". This is a reference to 1991, when he brought Falc�o to renew
the team but, as results didn't come by, he was sacked - but players like
Cafu and Mauro Silva (and others) would go on to 1994.
From: Clément on 6 Jul 2010 15:29
"Bruce D. Scott" escreveu:
> Ll�o wrote:
> Thanks for that story Lleo. Yes these knowitall journos always like to
> tell you they had it pegged all along...
It's worth mentioning this is not about a knowitall attitude by
journalists/papers, but also a payback for Dunga standing up against the
Globo network, which is used to have priviledged access to the NT.
From: Clément on 6 Jul 2010 16:13
> So here's a question for you and Lleo (and JP):
Lleo and JP already summed this up better than I could, so let me just add
my couple of cents:
> As discussed here many times, Dunga was obstinate in his selections
> and had clear favorites whom he "trusted."
True. But he was very fair all along the process, and gave many players a
fair chance. He got a little bit unlucky that some of the players who had
delivered for the NT in the last 2 or 3 years were not at their best when
the World Cup time came. He probably should have been a little less
conservative there, but how much is he able to do that without breaking team
chemistry too much?
> Some of them had been far
> from stellar for their club teams (Felipe Melo),
Felipe Melo was the team's biggest liability going in the World Cup, but was
doing well until his breakdown against Portugal. Luckily he was injured and
didn't play Chile, and my hopes were high that Ramires would take his place
also against the Netherlands - until Ramires picked up a stupid yellow. That
was a bad break.
> some played for
> relatively low profile teams (G.Silva, Elano),
Both had a good World Cup, and arguably validated Dunga's decision to start
them. Elano's injury was another bad break for Brazil. He was clearly missed
against the Netherlands.
> and some were
>temperamentally very suspect (Robinho).
He was a positive surprise to me (as I expect very little of him), and
brought the right attitude the the World Cup. He looked excessively nervous
against the Dutch, but he was hardly the only one.
> At the same time he left
> behind a resurgent star (Ronaldinho) and one of the country's best
> young talents (Pato). If this was all done in the name of stability
> and trust, then shouldn't he harbor complete blame for the team's
> implosion against Holland? And it's not the question of one bad game,
> it's the matter of his whole "trust" philosophy being thrown in his
It's not all about stability and trust, although that was a big factor.
One thing people don't seem to realize about Ronaldinho is that he never
really delivered for the NT, with the exception of a few stints (the 2005
season comes to mind, especially around the Confederations Cup).
And yet he has always had plenty of chances at the NT because, you know,
he's kind of good talent-wise.
Despite his perceived ressurgence last season, it's not clear he did enough
to merit being called again to the NT - and still I'm convinced he would
have been, if he was deemed capable to sit on the bench and work hard for to
be ready when the next opportunity came.
I hate to bring up half-arsed anedocte instead of facts, but I watched one
Milan game for the last Champions League (can't recall the opponent, sorry).
Ronaldinho worked some top notch brilliance for about 15 minutes, and then
was completely useless for the remainder of the game. Every once in a while,
he could be seen walking around the field, or botching some play.
Needless to say, the Brazilian announcers/press sang Ronaldinho's praises
the day after, while pointing that Dunga's stubborness was the only thing
separating such magic from the World Cup.
Kudos to Dunga for not caving to this kind of pressure.
> The team didn't lose because it was beaten by a superior
> opponent, it lost because of mental mistakes and indiscipline (Melo
> red card). Do you agree to some degree, or am I being harsh?
I do give the Netherlands more credit than that. I still like Brazil better,
but the Dutch can beat anyone on a good day. And they are like Brazil '94 in
that they realized winning the World Cup is in order and built their team
exactly for that. Good things happen when you have good players and build a
winning system around them.
Regarding Brazil, yes, the indiscipline costed us. No argument there. And
that's kind of ironic, as focus and discipline are two of the cornerstones
of Dunga's work.
Also, having trouble dealing with pressure was one of the last things I
expected to happen with this team. They faced a lot of it before. That said,
the World Cup is a whole different animal. In Brazil, sometimes it feels
like nothing else matters.
Plus, there's no such thing here as a good World Cup if you don't win.
Second is nothing. It's win or fail. This is not making excuses, just
guessing that a complete meltdown at the World Cup by an usually composed
team perhaps is not such an unlikely thing.
From: Clément on 6 Jul 2010 16:34
"Bruce D. Scott" escreveu:
> Here's the Guardian:
> ``Whither Dunga? And is it all really his fault? I can see the
> reasons why they've got rid of him. Brazil simply have to win the
> 2014 World Cup, and they also have to perform in a definitively
> Brazilian way while doing it. Dunga was never really a part of this,
> but rather a reaction to the perceived decadence of the 2006
Whoever wrote this, he/she gets it.
Dunga's policies and decisions were perfectly aligned with the
press/people's criticism of everything that went wrong with the 2006 team.
Namely, 1) players being picked/started because of their names instead of
their actual contribution, 2) a lack of discipline and leadership, 3) a too
festive environment, as opposed to a serious working environment you should
expect of a team playing the kind of important World Cup.
Dunga did exactly that, and built a really good team while doing so. You'd
expect people to be appreciative, except, you know, if you have ever been in
touch with actual people. =)
In all honesty, I wasn't sad by the 2006 demise, as I felt they didn't
deserve any better. It's different this time. They lost fair and square, on
their opponents' virtues and on their own mistakes. In this sense, the
outcome was fair. Judging by their work and approach, however, it's a pity
they didn't get a better reward. (Of course, there are other teams that work
hard as well).
> Man if Brasil's players believe such things they won't have a prayer
> dealing with the pressure. I think it might end as Italy 1990 did. The
> one moment they need nerves they won't find them.
I don't know, when it comes to the Brazilian NT, this kind of stuff comes
with the job. We have to win every World Cup. You can't play for Brazil if
you can't deal with this mindset.
Obviously, the pressure to win in 2014 will be worse than usual. It's not
just about winning the World Cup at home, it's about doing that when we are
the only NT among the top 6 in the world that failed to do so when hosting
for the first time.
However, I don't buy the "they also have to perform in a definitively
Brazilian way while doing it" part. That is what many Brazilians will lead
you to believe if you speak to them, but apart from purists, I highly doubt
that's a major concern.
And I highly doubt a experienced/competent coach would fall for that either.
They will play the way they believe gives them the best shot to win (maybe
even in a "Brazilian" way... =).
From: Clément on 6 Jul 2010 16:58
> "Cl�ment" escreveu:
>> The level of thinking and debate in our press is abysmal. I'm not talking
>> about the sensationalism and the agenda before and after the World Cup.
>> This happens everywhere. The problem is that the actual issues the NT has
>> to tackle, and has to tackle fast, will be obfuscated by the smoke from
>> the press vendetta against Dunga (with the exception of a few journalists
>> here and there).
> Which issues do you have in mind? Things like the renewing of the team, or
> the lack of WCQ that will have to be replaced by friendlies in 2012/2013?
My main concerns are about renewing the team, yes.
>> It's a very different situation from 2006, in which the team's attitude
>> was very poor, and the team selection was atrocious. Dunga's selection
>> had some flaws, one or two of them very serious, but it's funny how the
>> previous one was terribly worse, and yet very few accuse Parreira of it,
>> since he took all the big names. Our line-up for game 3 against Japan, in
>> which some players were rested, was ironically the closest to the
>> strongest line-up we were able to field back then.
> As you say, it is one thing to lose with the big names, quite another to
> lose without them. And I would add, the level of talent (or "star"
> players) available to Dunga now was not as high as the one available to
> Parreira in 2006.
Agreed. And we had less depth this time around as well.
>> As I wrote here before the WC, we need a new team. That's not because we
>> lost, we would have to renew the players even if we had won, because many
>> players will be either old or past it for 2014.
>> The best moment to start doing that is now. Considering this, I agree
>> Scolari is the best choice. He's proven, he's respected by pretty much
>> everyone (CBF, the press, the players, the people). We will need to
>> test/prove a full roster of new players. We don't need to be
>> testing/proving the coach as well.
> Quite agreed. I just read an interview by Ricardo Teixeira saying that he
> wants an at least five-year long project (possibly six - from 2013 to 2016
> Brasil will host football tournaments, and there's Copa America 2011 and
> the Olympics 2012, for what the latter is worth). Younger players will be
> given a chance, and he said that "the CBF structure, fans, press and I
> will have to be patient". This is a reference to 1991, when he brought
> Falc�o to renew the team but, as results didn't come by, he was sacked -
> but players like Cafu and Mauro Silva (and others) would go on to 1994.
Yeah, I suppose we'll have to be patient, but it's not as if this is a total
overhaul either. While we have to start building the core for 2014 now, we
could field a very decent team from the get go. And we should rely on some
older players to ease the transition.