Brazil and beautiful football
in [World Football]
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From: Alkamista on 5 Jul 2010 13:54 On Jul 4, 2:43 pm, Clément <lcmello.lis...(a)terra.com.br> wrote: > "Lleo" escreveu: > > > > > Had Dunga won this WC, he would be praised as much as Scolari (who, > > incidentally, was roasted for the same reasons before 2002), > > Exactly. Except Scolari is now widely seen as our one and true saviour, if > we hope to have any chances in 2014. ;) > > > regardless of style. The truly sad thing here, IMO, is not at all > > Brasil losing (since this is part of the game), but the treatment > > Dunga will get for the next few years. One could say he asked for it, > > but this is not a level playing field really... and the artillery fire > > from the Brasilian sports media has already begun today... > > Yes. Now it's time to pretend they knew what was going to happen and knew > what they were talking about since the beginning. > > Abra o, > > Luiz Mello So here's a question for you and Lleo (and JP): As discussed here many times, Dunga was obstinate in his selections and had clear favorites whom he "trusted." Some of them had been far from stellar for their club teams (Felipe Melo), some played for relatively low profile teams (G.Silva, Elano), and some were temperamentally very suspect (Robinho). At the same time he left behind a resurgent star (Ronaldinho) and one of the country's best young talents (Pato). If this was all done in the name of stability and trust, then shouldn't he harbor complete blame for the team's implosion against Holland? And it's not the question of one bad game, it's the matter of his whole "trust" philosophy being thrown in his face. The team didn't lose because it was beaten by a superior opponent, it lost because of mental mistakes and indiscipline (Melo red card). Do you agree to some degree, or am I being harsh?
From: Jesus Petry on 5 Jul 2010 14:01 On Jul 5, 2:54 pm, Alkamista <alkami...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > On Jul 4, 2:43 pm, Clément <lcmello.lis...(a)terra.com.br> wrote: > > > > > "Lleo" escreveu: > > > > Had Dunga won this WC, he would be praised as much as Scolari (who, > > > incidentally, was roasted for the same reasons before 2002), > > > Exactly. Except Scolari is now widely seen as our one and true saviour, if > > we hope to have any chances in 2014. ;) > > > > regardless of style. The truly sad thing here, IMO, is not at all > > > Brasil losing (since this is part of the game), but the treatment > > > Dunga will get for the next few years. One could say he asked for it, > > > but this is not a level playing field really... and the artillery fire > > > from the Brasilian sports media has already begun today... > > > Yes. Now it's time to pretend they knew what was going to happen and knew > > what they were talking about since the beginning. > > > Abra o, > > > Luiz Mello > > So here's a question for you and Lleo (and JP): > > As discussed here many times, Dunga was obstinate in his selections > and had clear favorites whom he "trusted." Some of them had been far > from stellar for their club teams (Felipe Melo), some played for > relatively low profile teams (G.Silva, Elano), and some were > temperamentally very suspect (Robinho). At the same time he left > behind a resurgent star (Ronaldinho) and one of the country's best > young talents (Pato). If this was all done in the name of stability > and trust, then shouldn't he harbor complete blame for the team's > implosion against Holland? And it's not the question of one bad game, > it's the matter of his whole "trust" philosophy being thrown in his > face. The team didn't lose because it was beaten by a superior > opponent, it lost because of mental mistakes and indiscipline (Melo > red card). Do you agree to some degree, or am I being harsh? The team may have "melted" in that particular game, but I'm not sure it would do any better under other philosophy. It's not like Ronaldinho or Pato were having an outstanding season (although Pato's problem was more injury related), and the guys who were indeed having a great season (Neymar and Ganso) had never been tested in the main squad before. Tchau! Jesus Petry
From: Bruce D. Scott on 5 Jul 2010 14:46 Jesus Petry (jesuspetry(a)pop.com.br) wrote: : The team may have "melted" in that particular game, but I'm not sure : it would do any better under other philosophy. It's not like : Ronaldinho or Pato were having an outstanding season (although Pato's : problem was more injury related), and the guys who were indeed having : a great season (Neymar and Ganso) had never been tested in the main : squad before. Ah that's what it is with Pato. But with the others wasn't the issue team chemistry? You cannot have "privileged" players in a World Cup the way you can (finitely) in a club. Here's the Guardian: ``Whither Dunga? And is it all really his fault? I can see the reasons why they've got rid of him. Brazil simply have to win the 2014 World Cup, and they also have to perform in a definitively Brazilian way while doing it. Dunga was never really a part of this, but rather a reaction to the perceived decadence of the 2006 campaign.'' Man if Brasil's players believe such things they won't have a prayer dealing with the pressure. I think it might end as Italy 1990 did. The one moment they need nerves they won't find them. -- ciao, Bruce drift wave turbulence: http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/
From: Alkamista on 5 Jul 2010 15:23 On Jul 5, 2:01 pm, Jesus Petry <jesuspe...(a)pop.com.br> wrote: > On Jul 5, 2:54 pm, Alkamista <alkami...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jul 4, 2:43 pm, Clément <lcmello.lis...(a)terra.com.br> wrote: > > > > "Lleo" escreveu: > > > > > Had Dunga won this WC, he would be praised as much as Scolari (who, > > > > incidentally, was roasted for the same reasons before 2002), > > > > Exactly. Except Scolari is now widely seen as our one and true saviour, if > > > we hope to have any chances in 2014. ;) > > > > > regardless of style. The truly sad thing here, IMO, is not at all > > > > Brasil losing (since this is part of the game), but the treatment > > > > Dunga will get for the next few years. One could say he asked for it, > > > > but this is not a level playing field really... and the artillery fire > > > > from the Brasilian sports media has already begun today... > > > > Yes. Now it's time to pretend they knew what was going to happen and knew > > > what they were talking about since the beginning. > > > > Abra o, > > > > Luiz Mello > > > So here's a question for you and Lleo (and JP): > > > As discussed here many times, Dunga was obstinate in his selections > > and had clear favorites whom he "trusted." Some of them had been far > > from stellar for their club teams (Felipe Melo), some played for > > relatively low profile teams (G.Silva, Elano), and some were > > temperamentally very suspect (Robinho). At the same time he left > > behind a resurgent star (Ronaldinho) and one of the country's best > > young talents (Pato). If this was all done in the name of stability > > and trust, then shouldn't he harbor complete blame for the team's > > implosion against Holland? And it's not the question of one bad game, > > it's the matter of his whole "trust" philosophy being thrown in his > > face. The team didn't lose because it was beaten by a superior > > opponent, it lost because of mental mistakes and indiscipline (Melo > > red card). Do you agree to some degree, or am I being harsh? > > The team may have "melted" in that particular game, but I'm not sure > it would do any better under other philosophy. Of course, no philosophy is perfect. But there are qualitative differences between them. > It's not like > Ronaldinho or Pato were having an outstanding season (although Pato's > problem was more injury related), and the guys who were indeed having > a great season (Neymar and Ganso) had never been tested in the main > squad before. Fair enough. But more than who he did not take it was a matter of who he did take, one of whom was instrumental in their defeat.
From: Ll�o on 5 Jul 2010 16:10
"Alkamista" <alkamista(a)hotmail.com> escreveu na mensagem news:d0a87599-f22f-4bd7-9137-d79c67f2a5e7(a)q12g2000yqj.googlegroups.com... On Jul 4, 2:43 pm, Cl�ment <lcmello.lis...(a)terra.com.br> wrote: > "Lleo" escreveu: > > > > > Had Dunga won this WC, he would be praised as much as Scolari (who, > > incidentally, was roasted for the same reasons before 2002), > > Exactly. Except Scolari is now widely seen as our one and true saviour, if > we hope to have any chances in 2014. ;) > > > regardless of style. The truly sad thing here, IMO, is not at all > > Brasil losing (since this is part of the game), but the treatment > > Dunga will get for the next few years. One could say he asked for it, > > but this is not a level playing field really... and the artillery fire > > from the Brasilian sports media has already begun today... > > Yes. Now it's time to pretend they knew what was going to happen and knew > what they were talking about since the beginning. > > Abra o, > > Luiz Mello > So here's a question for you and Lleo (and JP): > > As discussed here many times, Dunga was obstinate in his selections > and had clear favorites whom he "trusted." Some of them had been far > from stellar for their club teams (Felipe Melo), some played for > relatively low profile teams (G.Silva, Elano), and some were > temperamentally very suspect (Robinho). At the same time he left > behind a resurgent star (Ronaldinho) and one of the country's best > young talents (Pato). If this was all done in the name of stability > and trust, then shouldn't he harbor complete blame for the team's > implosion against Holland? And it's not the question of one bad game, > it's the matter of his whole "trust" philosophy being thrown in his > face. The team didn't lose because it was beaten by a superior > opponent, it lost because of mental mistakes and indiscipline (Melo > red card). Do you agree to some degree, or am I being harsh? If you look at the players left behind, there aren't many of them that could be considered automatic alternatives to the ones you listed, or some others Dunga selected. I think that Dunga's selection was actually close to what could have been under a different manager. That's why, IMO, laying the blame entirely on his feet is a bit harsh and unfair. Who are the "star" alternatives? Ronaldinho was given a lot of chances, and failed to deliver in every one of them. It's not like he was only average, in many occasions he was below average. There must be a point in which patience should wear off, one definitely shouldn't be called up on name alone. There's Adriano, who was "depressed" at the start of the year and has gotten himself in very serious trouble with the police (links with drug dealers). Also he wasn't playing like someone who would merit a place instead of Grafite. Diego has been given less chances than Ronaldinho, but also hasn't ever been up to them, plus the juventini on this forum can tell us about his season at Juve. And, as JP said, Pato had injury problems, and IMO Nilmar fitted in very well in his place. There are the "journeyman" alternatives. Say, Hernanes or Lucas. Could they have done better than Felipe Melo? Yes, why not. But I'm not about to say that we wouldn't have lost to Holland with them around... There are the youngsters. There was a national clamor for Ganso and Neymar, players who appeared on the radar three months before the final list was submitted. Indeed, many are making the post-facto point that, with 23 players, you do have space for a youngster or two (which is true) and that with an alternative like Ganso we'd have fared better against the Dutch. A team of experienced, proven players choking uglily and suddenly a 20-year old with zero previous caps for Brasil would turn things around? Maybe yes, probably not. Who says that he has to be the team saviour? Indeed, this kind of expectation on his shoulders may feel nice now (he gets credit for what he could have done, though in fact he didn't), but I'd like to see how he reacts when he's actually inside the pitch, under this pressure. Hopefully he'll shrug it off, but it might just as easily prove to be too much for him. Plus, you could quibble about the third keeper, but that's about as irrelevant as it gets. Whoever you put in instead of Doni (most likely Victor, a much better goalkeeper) would have been behind Julio Cesar and Gomes. And seeing how Julio Cesar played all games in spite of his back injury, just goes to show how far the third keeper was from action here. So, of the eight players above, only three or four could reasonably have been in instead of someone else. And that's out of a roster of 23. That's why I think that a different philosophy wouldn't have mattered much. And indeed, Dunga stuck with what was working so far (Copa America, Confed Cup, WCQ), and it still worked... until the 53rd minute of the quarterfinal. Brasil was playing a safe, solid World Cup so far and Holland wasn't the first good team we had played up to then. If the players lost their composure with a tying goal (mind you, still 11 vs 11, not behind in the score yet), who else there is to hold accountable for that other than... themselves? At this level, I simply don't buy the excuse that they were nervous because Dunga was angry in the subs bench. It was hardly the first time they saw that... Under-15's may feel unsettled by that, professionals used to competition at the top level must definitely know better. I still think he has done a good job overall. Of course, he has his share of responsibility for the loss, but IMO, it is not his alone. -- Ll�o |