Brazil and beautiful football
in [World Football]
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From: Lleo on 3 Jul 2010 20:53 On 2 jul, 14:38, JCQ <zelig9...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I'm thinking today's match may help Brazil in the long run. It shows > them that their beautiful football is not dead. No offense intended really, but I disagree. IMHO, if this "beautiful football" nonsense isn't dead and buried already, then it should be. > If they had won with > this Dunga brand of football it may have changed their play for the > next 20 years. Well, it's not really different from the brand of football played... 20 years ago! > Now I think they will go back to what makes their fans > happy and they are really best at. As Clement said, what makes fans happy is winning. It may not be everything but it is important. In the last 20 years Brasil has won quite a bit of silverware, between WCs, Copa America, Confederations Cup, plus a couple of 1st place finishes in the WCQ (means as much as 4th, but feels better than 4th). I don't recall a single one of them being done through "pretty" football, nor people really complaining about it. Compare that to the 20 years before that period. WC'70 and then... one Copa America, 19 years later. I respect your position if you disagree, but I know which of the two 20-years span I would pick, if asked to do so. Of course, it may also be because of my age. Had Dunga won this WC, he would be praised as much as Scolari (who, incidentally, was roasted for the same reasons before 2002), regardless of style. The truly sad thing here, IMO, is not at all Brasil losing (since this is part of the game), but the treatment Dunga will get for the next few years. One could say he asked for it, but this is not a level playing field really... and the artillery fire from the Brasilian sports media has already begun today... -- Lléo
From: Clément on 4 Jul 2010 14:43 "Lleo" escreveu: > > Had Dunga won this WC, he would be praised as much as Scolari (who, > incidentally, was roasted for the same reasons before 2002), Exactly. Except Scolari is now widely seen as our one and true saviour, if we hope to have any chances in 2014. ;) > regardless of style. The truly sad thing here, IMO, is not at all > Brasil losing (since this is part of the game), but the treatment > Dunga will get for the next few years. One could say he asked for it, > but this is not a level playing field really... and the artillery fire > from the Brasilian sports media has already begun today... Yes. Now it's time to pretend they knew what was going to happen and knew what they were talking about since the beginning. Abra�o, Luiz Mello
From: Ll�o on 5 Jul 2010 03:10 "Cl�ment" <lcmello.listas(a)terra.com.br> escreveu na mensagem news:i0qkhs$ate$1(a)news.eternal-september.org... > "Lleo" escreveu: >> >> Had Dunga won this WC, he would be praised as much as Scolari (who, >> incidentally, was roasted for the same reasons before 2002), > > Exactly. Except Scolari is now widely seen as our one and true saviour, if > we hope to have any chances in 2014. ;) "O tecnico que n�o tem medo de craque", said o Globo in its saturday headline. How grand is that? I remember the whiny articles on how all Scolari wanted was "a family, not a team", how "Garrincha would never play for him", Socrates saying that "even China will beat this Brasilian team"... well, let's not get started. >> regardless of style. The truly sad thing here, IMO, is not at all >> Brasil losing (since this is part of the game), but the treatment >> Dunga will get for the next few years. One could say he asked for it, >> but this is not a level playing field really... and the artillery fire >> from the Brasilian sports media has already begun today... > > Yes. Now it's time to pretend they knew what was going to happen and knew > what they were talking about since the beginning. They've already displayed poor taste a while ago in this WC. Incredibly enough, O Globo (supposedly the "biggest newspaper in Brasil") brought up the sinking of the Bismarck when Germany lost to Serbia (enough of a non-sequitur per itself, even more when you consider that these WW2 references are inexistent in the Brasilian sports press or football culture). What I read from them yesterday and today, though, almost made me sick. The post-mortems have been reason-free so far, even resorting to openly dishonest tactics, like quoting out of context (regarding Dunga's answer to the question "who is to blame?"). You would think that Brasil's last three years were disastrous, all victories chalked up to a "considerable dose of luck". Popular pressure has, again, became "the voice of the people, whose warnings Dunga ignored". Even the usually weak opponents Brasil picks for friendlies have been blamed on Dunga (and not in CBF's greed to use the nt to rake up some euros or petro-$$$), another intelligence insulting comment. Although this is indeed something that should be addressed, with 18 WCQs you can hardly say Brasil lacked meaningful games in this period. Now, we will actually need strong opponents for the friendlies. I wouldn't be surprised if he was blamed for the economic crisis and the earthquake in Haiti as well. But I have no intention of keep reading tomorrow to find that out... I wasn't even bothering anymore at all, due to the Flamengo-loving nature of their usual coverage, but for the WC... well, if there's a positive to observe, it was Luis Fernando Verissimo's columns. Always a great read. Well... sorry for the rant, had to get it off my system. There is already a list of candidates for replacement, including Luiz Felipe Scolari, Mano Menezes, Ricardo Gomes and Leonardo. I hope it's one of the first two, preferably Scolari. Since there's a friendly with the US in early August, we'll soon find out. -- Ll�o
From: Clément on 5 Jul 2010 09:13 "Ll�o" escreveu: > "Cl�ment" escreveu: >> Exactly. Except Scolari is now widely seen as our one and true saviour, >> if we hope to have any chances in 2014. ;) > > "O tecnico que n�o tem medo de craque", said o Globo in its saturday > headline. How grand is that? I remember the whiny articles on how all > Scolari wanted was "a family, not a team", how "Garrincha would never play > for him", Socrates saying that "even China will beat this Brasilian > team"... well, let's not get started. The level of thinking and debate in our press is abysmal. I'm not talking about the sensationalism and the agenda before and after the World Cup. This happens everywhere. The problem is that the actual issues the NT has to tackle, and has to tackle fast, will be obfuscated by the smoke from the press vendetta against Dunga (with the exception of a few journalists here and there). (...) > But I have no intention of keep reading tomorrow to find that out... Wise decision. =) This is what I am doing for a long time, weeks before the WC, even. > I wasn't even bothering anymore at all, due to the Flamengo-loving nature > of their usual coverage, but for the WC... well, if there's a positive to > observe, it was Luis Fernando Verissimo's columns. Always a great read. What's his take on it? Maybe he's more sympathetic to Dunga, being an Inter fan and all? ;) > Well... sorry for the rant, had to get it off my system. There is already > a list of candidates for replacement, including Luiz Felipe Scolari, Mano > Menezes, Ricardo Gomes and Leonardo. I hope it's one of the first two, > preferably Scolari. Since there's a friendly with the US in early August, > we'll soon find out. The NT had clear needs after 2006, and those have been fully addressed by Dunga and his staff. Despite the disappointing loss, I felt these guys actually deserved better (well, except maybe the kickboxer Felipe Melo), so they should keep their heads up. It's a very different situation from 2006, in which the team's attitude was very poor, and the team selection was atrocious. Dunga's selection had some flaws, one or two of them very serious, but it's funny how the previous one was terribly worse, and yet very few accuse Parreira of it, since he took all the big names. Our line-up for game 3 against Japan, in which some players were rested, was ironically the closest to the strongest line-up we were able to field back then. As I wrote here before the WC, we need a new team. That's not because we lost, we would have to renew the players even if we had won, because many players will be either old or past it for 2014. The best moment to start doing that is now. Considering this, I agree Scolari is the best choice. He's proven, he's respected by pretty much everyone (CBF, the press, the players, the people). We will need to test/prove a full roster of new players. We don't need to be testing/proving the coach as well. Abra�o, Luiz Mello
From: Bruce D. Scott on 5 Jul 2010 11:24
Ll�o (lleo_lm(a)lycos.com) wrote: [...] Thanks for that story Lleo. Yes these knowitall journos always like to tell you they had it pegged all along... [O Globo] Oh yes that's just like Bild in Germany. On the soap opera bits, here's a summary in English: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/jul/05/world-cup-2010-brazil-dunga/print So it's not just with the USA and OJ Simpson. Socrates is the same to you as Gunther Netzer to Germany... People who don't like Merkel (and how silly she looked while clapping around like a little kid... personally IMHO that makes her more sympathetic) are bringing up a lot of political stuff in d.r.s.f ... : They've already displayed poor taste a while ago in this WC. Incredibly : enough, O Globo (supposedly the "biggest newspaper in Brasil") brought up : the sinking of the Bismarck when Germany lost to Serbia (enough of a : non-sequitur per itself, even more when you consider that these WW2 : references are inexistent in the Brasilian sports press or football : culture). It's even a wrong reference... but Germany in Serbia and WWII let's not go there... [Dunga stuff] You get the impression they'd say you're not real Brasil even had you won... : can hardly say Brasil lacked meaningful games in this period. Now, we will : actually need strong opponents for the friendlies. The eternal goal for the USA... we often can't get them to travel to us though. What you'll need is experience playing good teams in front of your ungrateful fanspresscritters : Well... sorry for the rant, had to get it off my system. There is already a : list of candidates for replacement, including Luiz Felipe Scolari, Mano : Menezes, Ricardo Gomes and Leonardo. I hope it's one of the first two, : preferably Scolari. Since there's a friendly with the US in early August, : we'll soon find out. That's a bit interesting for us too... I still think it will be a mistake to hold onto Bradley after a mildly successful WC. Shades of Arena. I don't want our first match in 2014 to look like the one in 2006... -- ciao, Bruce drift wave turbulence: http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/ |