From: Chagney Hunt on
On Jun 20, 1:02 am, Chagney Hunt <ess...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 19, 11:41 pm, Abubakr <deltara...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 20, 1:19 pm, Chagney Hunt <ess...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 19, 9:41 pm, Kaise...(a)gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > >      Since 1990 at least it's been clear that Africans have a
> > > > particular style and that it's very attractive.  They are extremely
> > > > patient and very careful with the ball.  Their defenders, in mhy
> > > > opinion, are the best in the world at making their first touch count,
> > > > that is, finding an open teammate instead of just whacking it up the
> > > > field.  They are very good ball winners.  But there's one thing that
> > > > they tend to be very bad at, and it seems to do them in every time in
> > > > the WC.
>
> > > >      Scoring.
>
> > > >      Yes, Drogba is a great scorer, and everyone seems to think Eto
> > > > is, although I've never really seen him do all that much.  But it
> > > > seems to me that speed (of foot) is usually the key to creating
> > > > chances nowadays, and that tends to be a weakness of the African
> > > > sides.  Partly because their players tend to be so large.  
>
> > > >      Comments?
> > >and
> > > the highest quality of football is played in later rounds of Champions
> > > League, not this show case.
>
> > On average perhaps, but not necessarily or always. The World Cup still
> > produces football to rival what's on offer in the CL.
>
> In entertainment value -- yes. Division 4 can produce games as
> entertaining as the best World Cup game. In actual team strength? I
> don't think so. You may have to go back to the 70s and early 80s ('82
> Italy was basically Juventus) to find a national team better than any
> club side, when moving abroad was harder and much less common. Since
> the 90s, not so much. Germany 1990 was perhaps the last national team
> that was equal to the best club side at the time.
>
> '94 Brazil? I'll take '94 Barcelona and Milan over that Brazil easily.
> '98 France? Not bad, but were they better than Juventus or Real
> Madrid? Hell, were they even better than Monaco?
> '02 Brazil? Had lots of stars -- Galacticos 1.0 could match them star
> for star, and they got punted by Juventus 8-9 months later. The other
> finalist -- Germany wouldn't probably even get into the quarter final
> of Champions League of that year :-)
> '06 Italy? Over Laporta 1.0 or the last great Arsenal side? Doubtful.

I do realize that comparing the strength of a national side to that of
a club is subjective in the best of cases, since they never play one
another in a meaningful match. There, however, were cases of national
team built on the core of a single club. We can compare the success of
that club to the success of the national side based on that club.
Though there were too few of them to reach any meaningful conclusion,
but could be interesting references, nevertheless.

1. '62 Czechoslavakia -- World Cup finalist, 4 Dukla Prague players.
Too few to be consider single club-cored. Dukla got elimiated in the
Quarter Final that year European Cup to Tottenham Hotspur.
2. '74 Germany -- World Cup winner, 6 Bayern Munich players started
the final (Maier, Breitner, Schwarzenbeck, Beckenbauer, Hoeness,
Mueller). Bayern Munich won their first of 3 consecutive European Cups
that year.
3. '82 Italy -- World Cup winner, 6 Juventini started in the final
(Zoff, Scirea, Gentile, Cabrini, Tardelli, Rossi). That year Juventus
was eliminated in the second round of European Cup by Anderlecht.
4. '88 USSR -- Euro finalist. 8 players from Dynamo Kyiv played in the
final. Dynamo Kyiv in Europe? Not so impressive, they got dumped in
the first round of European Cup by Glasgow Rangers.

Anyone else? I can vaguely recall the great French side of 1984 were
beaten in a friendly by Penarol (or was it Porto?) 0-2 in France. But
it was only a friendly.


From: Chagney Hunt on
On Jun 20, 2:17 am, Chagney Hunt <ess...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 20, 1:02 am, Chagney Hunt <ess...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 19, 11:41 pm, Abubakr <deltara...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 20, 1:19 pm, Chagney Hunt <ess...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Jun 19, 9:41 pm, Kaise...(a)gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > >      Since 1990 at least it's been clear that Africans have a
> > > > > particular style and that it's very attractive.  They are extremely
> > > > > patient and very careful with the ball.  Their defenders, in mhy
> > > > > opinion, are the best in the world at making their first touch count,
> > > > > that is, finding an open teammate instead of just whacking it up the
> > > > > field.  They are very good ball winners.  But there's one thing that
> > > > > they tend to be very bad at, and it seems to do them in every time in
> > > > > the WC.
>
> > > > >      Scoring.
>
> > > > >      Yes, Drogba is a great scorer, and everyone seems to think Eto
> > > > > is, although I've never really seen him do all that much.  But it
> > > > > seems to me that speed (of foot) is usually the key to creating
> > > > > chances nowadays, and that tends to be a weakness of the African
> > > > > sides.  Partly because their players tend to be so large.  
>
> > > > >      Comments?
> > > >and
> > > > the highest quality of football is played in later rounds of Champions
> > > > League, not this show case.
>
> > > On average perhaps, but not necessarily or always. The World Cup still
> > > produces football to rival what's on offer in the CL.
>
> > In entertainment value -- yes. Division 4 can produce games as
> > entertaining as the best World Cup game. In actual team strength? I
> > don't think so. You may have to go back to the 70s and early 80s ('82
> > Italy was basically Juventus) to find a national team better than any
> > club side, when moving abroad was harder and much less common. Since
> > the 90s, not so much. Germany 1990 was perhaps the last national team
> > that was equal to the best club side at the time.
>
> > '94 Brazil? I'll take '94 Barcelona and Milan over that Brazil easily.
> > '98 France? Not bad, but were they better than Juventus or Real
> > Madrid? Hell, were they even better than Monaco?
> > '02 Brazil? Had lots of stars -- Galacticos 1.0 could match them star
> > for star, and they got punted by Juventus 8-9 months later. The other
> > finalist -- Germany wouldn't probably even get into the quarter final
> > of Champions League of that year :-)
> > '06 Italy? Over Laporta 1.0 or the last great Arsenal side? Doubtful.
>
> I do realize that comparing the strength of a national side to that of
> a club is subjective in the best of cases, since they never play one
> another in a meaningful match. There, however, were cases of national
> team built on the core of a single club. We can compare the success of
> that club to the success of the national side based on that club.
> Though there were too few of them to reach any meaningful conclusion,
> but could be interesting references, nevertheless.
>
> 1. '62 Czechoslavakia -- World Cup finalist, 4 Dukla Prague players.
> Too few to be consider single club-cored. Dukla got elimiated in the
> Quarter Final that year European Cup to Tottenham Hotspur.
> 2. '74 Germany -- World Cup winner, 6 Bayern Munich players started
> the final (Maier, Breitner, Schwarzenbeck, Beckenbauer, Hoeness,
> Mueller). Bayern Munich won their first of 3 consecutive European Cups
> that year.
> 3. '82 Italy -- World Cup winner, 6 Juventini started in the final
> (Zoff, Scirea, Gentile, Cabrini, Tardelli, Rossi). That year Juventus
> was eliminated in the second round of European Cup by Anderlecht.
> 4. '88 USSR -- Euro finalist. 8 players from Dynamo Kyiv played in the
> final. Dynamo Kyiv in Europe? Not so impressive, they got dumped in
> the first round of European Cup by Glasgow Rangers.
>
> Anyone else? I can vaguely recall the great French side of 1984 were
> beaten in a friendly by Penarol (or was it Porto?) 0-2 in France. But
> it was only a friendly.

I've just remembered Romania 1990 -- the entire squad based almost
solely on Steaua Bucharest. They got dumped by PSV in the second of
European Cup that year but they did reach the final the year before
and won it in '86. Romania did not qualify for WC '86 or Euro '88
(finished 2nd to Spain). Romania got eliminated in the second round of
1990 WC to Ireland.
From: Abubakr on
On Jun 20, 3:02 pm, Chagney Hunt <ess...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 19, 11:41 pm, Abubakr <deltara...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 20, 1:19 pm, Chagney Hunt <ess...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 19, 9:41 pm, Kaise...(a)gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > >      Since 1990 at least it's been clear that Africans have a
> > > > particular style and that it's very attractive.  They are extremely
> > > > patient and very careful with the ball.  Their defenders, in mhy
> > > > opinion, are the best in the world at making their first touch count,
> > > > that is, finding an open teammate instead of just whacking it up the
> > > > field.  They are very good ball winners.  But there's one thing that
> > > > they tend to be very bad at, and it seems to do them in every time in
> > > > the WC.
>
> > > >      Scoring.
>
> > > >      Yes, Drogba is a great scorer, and everyone seems to think Eto
> > > > is, although I've never really seen him do all that much.  But it
> > > > seems to me that speed (of foot) is usually the key to creating
> > > > chances nowadays, and that tends to be a weakness of the African
> > > > sides.  Partly because their players tend to be so large.  
>
> > > >      Comments?
> > >and
> > > the highest quality of football is played in later rounds of Champions
> > > League, not this show case.
>
> > On average perhaps, but not necessarily or always. The World Cup still
> > produces football to rival what's on offer in the CL.
>
> In entertainment value -- yes. Division 4 can produce games as
> entertaining as the best World Cup game.

No, on the strength of the football as well.

In actual team strength? I
> don't think so. You may have to go back to the 70s and early 80s ('82
> Italy was basically Juventus) to find a national team better than any
> club side, when moving abroad was harder and much less common. Since
> the 90s, not so much. Germany 1990 was perhaps the last national team
> that was equal to the best club side at the time.
>
> '94 Brazil? I'll take '94 Barcelona and Milan over that Brazil easily.
> '98 France? Not bad, but were they better than Juventus or Real
> Madrid? Hell, were they even better than Monaco?
> '02 Brazil? Had lots of stars -- Galacticos 1.0 could match them star
> for star, and they got punted by Juventus 8-9 months later. The other
> finalist -- Germany wouldn't probably even get into the quarter final
> of Champions League of that year :-)
> '06 Italy? Over Laporta 1.0 or the last great Arsenal side? Doubtful.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Right now we have potentially very strong teams that would give any
compete easily in the latter stages of the Champion's League, eg.
Brazil, Spain, Argentina, Germany. We all know these would match up
with the quarter finalists of this years CL very well indeed.
From: Abubakr on
On Jun 20, 4:46 pm, Chagney Hunt <ess...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 20, 2:17 am, Chagney Hunt <ess...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 20, 1:02 am, Chagney Hunt <ess...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 19, 11:41 pm, Abubakr <deltara...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Jun 20, 1:19 pm, Chagney Hunt <ess...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Jun 19, 9:41 pm, Kaise...(a)gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > > >      Since 1990 at least it's been clear that Africans have a
> > > > > > particular style and that it's very attractive.  They are extremely
> > > > > > patient and very careful with the ball.  Their defenders, in mhy
> > > > > > opinion, are the best in the world at making their first touch count,
> > > > > > that is, finding an open teammate instead of just whacking it up the
> > > > > > field.  They are very good ball winners.  But there's one thing that
> > > > > > they tend to be very bad at, and it seems to do them in every time in
> > > > > > the WC.
>
> > > > > >      Scoring.
>
> > > > > >      Yes, Drogba is a great scorer, and everyone seems to think Eto
> > > > > > is, although I've never really seen him do all that much.  But it
> > > > > > seems to me that speed (of foot) is usually the key to creating
> > > > > > chances nowadays, and that tends to be a weakness of the African
> > > > > > sides.  Partly because their players tend to be so large.  
>
> > > > > >      Comments?
> > > > >and
> > > > > the highest quality of football is played in later rounds of Champions
> > > > > League, not this show case.
>
> > > > On average perhaps, but not necessarily or always. The World Cup still
> > > > produces football to rival what's on offer in the CL.
>
> > > In entertainment value -- yes. Division 4 can produce games as
> > > entertaining as the best World Cup game. In actual team strength? I
> > > don't think so. You may have to go back to the 70s and early 80s ('82
> > > Italy was basically Juventus) to find a national team better than any
> > > club side, when moving abroad was harder and much less common. Since
> > > the 90s, not so much. Germany 1990 was perhaps the last national team
> > > that was equal to the best club side at the time.
>
> > > '94 Brazil? I'll take '94 Barcelona and Milan over that Brazil easily..
> > > '98 France? Not bad, but were they better than Juventus or Real
> > > Madrid? Hell, were they even better than Monaco?
> > > '02 Brazil? Had lots of stars -- Galacticos 1.0 could match them star
> > > for star, and they got punted by Juventus 8-9 months later. The other
> > > finalist -- Germany wouldn't probably even get into the quarter final
> > > of Champions League of that year :-)
> > > '06 Italy? Over Laporta 1.0 or the last great Arsenal side? Doubtful.
>
> > I do realize that comparing the strength of a national side to that of
> > a club is subjective in the best of cases, since they never play one
> > another in a meaningful match. There, however, were cases of national
> > team built on the core of a single club. We can compare the success of
> > that club to the success of the national side based on that club.
> > Though there were too few of them to reach any meaningful conclusion,
> > but could be interesting references, nevertheless.
>
> > 1. '62 Czechoslavakia -- World Cup finalist, 4 Dukla Prague players.
> > Too few to be consider single club-cored. Dukla got elimiated in the
> > Quarter Final that year European Cup to Tottenham Hotspur.
> > 2. '74 Germany -- World Cup winner, 6 Bayern Munich players started
> > the final (Maier, Breitner, Schwarzenbeck, Beckenbauer, Hoeness,
> > Mueller). Bayern Munich won their first of 3 consecutive European Cups
> > that year.
> > 3. '82 Italy -- World Cup winner, 6 Juventini started in the final
> > (Zoff, Scirea, Gentile, Cabrini, Tardelli, Rossi). That year Juventus
> > was eliminated in the second round of European Cup by Anderlecht.
> > 4. '88 USSR -- Euro finalist. 8 players from Dynamo Kyiv played in the
> > final. Dynamo Kyiv in Europe? Not so impressive, they got dumped in
> > the first round of European Cup by Glasgow Rangers.
>
> > Anyone else? I can vaguely recall the great French side of 1984 were
> > beaten in a friendly by Penarol (or was it Porto?) 0-2 in France. But
> > it was only a friendly.
>
> I've just remembered Romania 1990 -- the entire squad based almost
> solely on Steaua Bucharest. They got dumped by PSV in the second of
> European Cup that year but they did reach the final the year before
> and won it in '86. Romania did not qualify for WC '86 or Euro '88
> (finished 2nd to Spain). Romania got eliminated in the second round of
> 1990 WC to Ireland.- Hide quoted text -

Yes, club teams have usually done well against an hapharzardly
assembled NT in the past but pit a NT after preperation in camp for a
major competition and the tables would be turned.
From: Chagney Hunt on
On Jun 20, 5:17 am, Abubakr <deltara...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 20, 4:46 pm, Chagney Hunt <ess...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 20, 2:17 am, Chagney Hunt <ess...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 20, 1:02 am, Chagney Hunt <ess...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Jun 19, 11:41 pm, Abubakr <deltara...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Jun 20, 1:19 pm, Chagney Hunt <ess...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Jun 19, 9:41 pm, Kaise...(a)gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > > > >      Since 1990 at least it's been clear that Africans have a
> > > > > > > particular style and that it's very attractive.  They are extremely
> > > > > > > patient and very careful with the ball.  Their defenders, in mhy
> > > > > > > opinion, are the best in the world at making their first touch count,
> > > > > > > that is, finding an open teammate instead of just whacking it up the
> > > > > > > field.  They are very good ball winners.  But there's one thing that
> > > > > > > they tend to be very bad at, and it seems to do them in every time in
> > > > > > > the WC.
>
> > > > > > >      Scoring.
>
> > > > > > >      Yes, Drogba is a great scorer, and everyone seems to think Eto
> > > > > > > is, although I've never really seen him do all that much.  But it
> > > > > > > seems to me that speed (of foot) is usually the key to creating
> > > > > > > chances nowadays, and that tends to be a weakness of the African
> > > > > > > sides.  Partly because their players tend to be so large.  
>
> > > > > > >      Comments?
> > > > > >and
> > > > > > the highest quality of football is played in later rounds of Champions
> > > > > > League, not this show case.
>
> > > > > On average perhaps, but not necessarily or always. The World Cup still
> > > > > produces football to rival what's on offer in the CL.
>
> > > > In entertainment value -- yes. Division 4 can produce games as
> > > > entertaining as the best World Cup game. In actual team strength? I
> > > > don't think so. You may have to go back to the 70s and early 80s ('82
> > > > Italy was basically Juventus) to find a national team better than any
> > > > club side, when moving abroad was harder and much less common. Since
> > > > the 90s, not so much. Germany 1990 was perhaps the last national team
> > > > that was equal to the best club side at the time.
>
> > > > '94 Brazil? I'll take '94 Barcelona and Milan over that Brazil easily.
> > > > '98 France? Not bad, but were they better than Juventus or Real
> > > > Madrid? Hell, were they even better than Monaco?
> > > > '02 Brazil? Had lots of stars -- Galacticos 1.0 could match them star
> > > > for star, and they got punted by Juventus 8-9 months later. The other
> > > > finalist -- Germany wouldn't probably even get into the quarter final
> > > > of Champions League of that year :-)
> > > > '06 Italy? Over Laporta 1.0 or the last great Arsenal side? Doubtful.
>
> > > I do realize that comparing the strength of a national side to that of
> > > a club is subjective in the best of cases, since they never play one
> > > another in a meaningful match. There, however, were cases of national
> > > team built on the core of a single club. We can compare the success of
> > > that club to the success of the national side based on that club.
> > > Though there were too few of them to reach any meaningful conclusion,
> > > but could be interesting references, nevertheless.
>
> > > 1. '62 Czechoslavakia -- World Cup finalist, 4 Dukla Prague players.
> > > Too few to be consider single club-cored. Dukla got elimiated in the
> > > Quarter Final that year European Cup to Tottenham Hotspur.
> > > 2. '74 Germany -- World Cup winner, 6 Bayern Munich players started
> > > the final (Maier, Breitner, Schwarzenbeck, Beckenbauer, Hoeness,
> > > Mueller). Bayern Munich won their first of 3 consecutive European Cups
> > > that year.
> > > 3. '82 Italy -- World Cup winner, 6 Juventini started in the final
> > > (Zoff, Scirea, Gentile, Cabrini, Tardelli, Rossi). That year Juventus
> > > was eliminated in the second round of European Cup by Anderlecht.
> > > 4. '88 USSR -- Euro finalist. 8 players from Dynamo Kyiv played in the
> > > final. Dynamo Kyiv in Europe? Not so impressive, they got dumped in
> > > the first round of European Cup by Glasgow Rangers.
>
> > > Anyone else? I can vaguely recall the great French side of 1984 were
> > > beaten in a friendly by Penarol (or was it Porto?) 0-2 in France. But
> > > it was only a friendly.
>
> > I've just remembered Romania 1990 -- the entire squad based almost
> > solely on Steaua Bucharest. They got dumped by PSV in the second of
> > European Cup that year but they did reach the final the year before
> > and won it in '86. Romania did not qualify for WC '86 or Euro '88
> > (finished 2nd to Spain). Romania got eliminated in the second round of
> > 1990 WC to Ireland.- Hide quoted text -
>
> Yes, club teams have usually done well against an hapharzardly
> assembled NT in the past but pit a NT after preperation in camp for a
> major competition and the tables would be turned.

In modern time they don't get more than a couple weeks to prepare.

Anyway, given all the time in the world, it's extremely unlikely that
the best ten national teams on average are as good as the best 10
clubs. It's only logical, the clubs aren't limited by the selection
pools. The World Cup is actually provide great examples of how
deficient many national sides at certain positions.
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