10 most hated football teams
in [World Football]
|
From: Sven Mischkies on 5 Mar 2010 20:15 FF <FAIRFOOTBALL.COM(a)domainsbyproxy.com> wrote: > Yes but a club the size of Hoffenheim will never make it in the BL > without a sugardaddy. So either you accept that they don't belong in > the BL, or you accept the sugardaddy. I don't accept either. IIRC the smallest town in the Bundesliga so far was Unterhaching, with a population of just about 20k, followed by Homburg with 40k. Hoppenheim itself has only a population of 3k, but is a suburb of Sinsheim, which has a population of 35k - so I don't see a reason why they shouldn't be able to work their way up the leagues in a fair manner. Btw: Hopp didn't intend to bring Hoppenheim up originally. He only started doing that when the members of VfR Mannheim (who played in the final round of the German Championshop in the 50s, IIRC) and SV Waldhof Mannheim (who played Bundesliga in the 80s) rejected his proposition to merge and become his plaything. > > > Anyway, Hopp isn't the one to kill the chances of smaller clubs in > > > Germany. > > > > No? What do you say to the clubs that couldn't get promoted to > > Bundesliga, 2. Bundesliga, 3. Liga, Regionalliga thanks to the financial > > behemoth that jumped the queue? > > I'm sorry but I don't care much about whether a club is last in the > first division or first in the second one. I'm talking first of all of > chances of winning the title or at least getting into the champs > league. > Anyway, I don't know the specifics here but I imagine if somebody like > Hopp is putting so much of his own money into such a thing, with a > very slim chance of seeing much of it back, he'll at least want good > results for it so he'll want things to be done the right way. And > since he's definitely and undoubtedly the boss there, and I guess he > has some head for business, maybe even for football or else maybe he > wouldn't be venturing into this, he might be doing a good job. You > know, military is better in wartime than democracy. I imagine in many > clubs there will be a lot of influences and interests, which may not > always result in the best decisions. Correct me if I'm wrong. You are correct. Club politics in membership clubs like in Germany can bring a club down. And yes, the staff he bought obviously did do a very good job. They are now at their limit, though (Rangnick and stars doesn't work). :) > > > So I don't know, in the current landscape I still think > > > sugardaddies are a necessity for smaller clubs to win something. All > > > your examples BTW were prior to 2000 I believe. > > > > Thanks to the sugardaddy of Lyon, yes. If not for him France would have > > had the last truly competitive top league. > > Competitive internally but not externally. In recent years the only > french club to mount a halfway credible attempt at competing in the > Champs League is Lyon. Monaco made the final in 2004 or so, IIRC. But then of course Monaco is the role model sugar daddy club. ;) Ciao, SM -- http://www.gourockviews.co.uk I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting. But it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously. Douglas Adams
From: FF on 5 Mar 2010 21:02 Sven Mischkies wrote: > FF <FAIRFOOTBALL.COM(a)domainsbyproxy.com> wrote: > > > Yes but a club the size of Hoffenheim will never make it in the BL > > without a sugardaddy. So either you accept that they don't belong in > > the BL, or you accept the sugardaddy. > > I don't accept either. IIRC the smallest town in the Bundesliga so far > was Unterhaching, with a population of just about 20k, followed by > Homburg with 40k. > > Hoppenheim itself has only a population of 3k, but is a suburb of > Sinsheim, which has a population of 35k - so I don't see a reason why > they shouldn't be able to work their way up the leagues in a fair > manner. That's not very convincing. In the normal course of events it's Sinsheim who stands a (very small) chance of getting into the BL, not Hoffenheim. Besides, if I get it right your 2 examples are not very recent; besides they are extremely few. You don't have a case here. :-) > Btw: Hopp didn't intend to bring Hoppenheim up originally. He only > started doing that when the members of VfR Mannheim (who played in the > final round of the German Championshop in the 50s, IIRC) and SV Waldhof > Mannheim (who played Bundesliga in the 80s) rejected his proposition to > merge and become his plaything. Which could also be seen as: stupid club politics were against his good plans of doing a solid thing, so he sent them to hell and did it by himself, with good results. They probably regretted him afterwards. I guess I also wouldn't like local interests to mess up with my money if I was him. The "plaything" thing could be appropriate if he had messed things up himself; once you admit he did the job right it doesn't really fit into the picture. > And yes, the staff he bought obviously did do a very good job. Well, we should then admire him at least for this (you first of all, being german :-) ). Of course this is true for Burlesco also, on a very large scale; but he's hard to swallow for other reasons.
From: Sven Mischkies on 5 Mar 2010 21:31 FF <FAIRFOOTBALL.COM(a)domainsbyproxy.com> wrote: > Sven Mischkies wrote: > > FF <FAIRFOOTBALL.COM(a)domainsbyproxy.com> wrote: > > > > > Yes but a club the size of Hoffenheim will never make it in the BL > > > without a sugardaddy. So either you accept that they don't belong in > > > the BL, or you accept the sugardaddy. > > > > I don't accept either. IIRC the smallest town in the Bundesliga so far > > was Unterhaching, with a population of just about 20k, followed by > > Homburg with 40k. > > > > Hoppenheim itself has only a population of 3k, but is a suburb of > > Sinsheim, which has a population of 35k - so I don't see a reason why > > they shouldn't be able to work their way up the leagues in a fair > > manner. > > That's not very convincing. In the normal course of events it's > Sinsheim who stands a (very small) chance of getting into the BL, not > Hoffenheim. Besides, if I get it right your 2 examples are not very > recent; besides they are extremely few. You don't have a case > here. :-) Unterhaching was 9 years ago, Homburg about 20. There have been examples before of parts of larger towns making it to the final rounds of the German Championship (Sodingen, Neuendorf), and of course Schalke is not a town, but a part of Gelsenkirchen. > > Btw: Hopp didn't intend to bring Hoppenheim up originally. He only > > started doing that when the members of VfR Mannheim (who played in the > > final round of the German Championshop in the 50s, IIRC) and SV Waldhof > > Mannheim (who played Bundesliga in the 80s) rejected his proposition to > > merge and become his plaything. > > Which could also be seen as: stupid club politics were against his > good plans of doing a solid thing, so he sent them to hell and did it > by himself, with good results. Stupid politics, like the wish to preserve 100 year old clubs. Like the wish to have some influence on club politics and not to give up your membership rights. > They probably regretted him afterwards. Well... VfR and Waldhof are fierce rivals. Imagine someone buying Man City and Man United and merging them. Mayhem would ensue. ;) Both clubs are in the doldrums of the 4th level or so (VfR below, I think), but have the potential to make it back if they get a decent management. > I guess I also wouldn't like local interests to mess up with my money > if I was him. The "plaything" thing could be appropriate if he had > messed things up himself; once you admit he did the job right it > doesn't really fit into the picture. I didn't say that he did the right thing. Yes, he brought his village club into the Bundesliga thanks to overspending and decent Bundesliga level management - no, he didn't preserve anything about this club. It lost its identity. It is something else now. > > And yes, the staff he bought obviously did do a very good job. > > Well, we should then admire him at least for this (you first of all, > being german :-) ). Of course this is true for Burlesco also, on a > very large scale; but he's hard to swallow for other reasons. Burlesco at least has funny scandals. ;) Ciao, SM -- http://www.gourockviews.co.uk I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting. But it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously. Douglas Adams
From: FF on 6 Mar 2010 10:02 Sven Mischkies wrote: > FF <FAIRFOOTBALL.COM(a)domainsbyproxy.com> wrote: > > > > Btw: Hopp didn't intend to bring Hoppenheim up originally. He only > > > started doing that when the members of VfR Mannheim (who played in the > > > final round of the German Championshop in the 50s, IIRC) and SV Waldhof > > > Mannheim (who played Bundesliga in the 80s) rejected his proposition to > > > merge and become his plaything. > > > > Which could also be seen as: stupid club politics were against his > > good plans of doing a solid thing, so he sent them to hell and did it > > by himself, with good results. > > Stupid politics, like the wish to preserve 100 year old clubs. Like the > wish to have some influence on club politics and not to give up your > membership rights. Well, you'd have to balance this against the perspective of winning a title. > > They probably regretted him afterwards. > > Well... VfR and Waldhof are fierce rivals. Imagine someone buying Man > City and Man United and merging them. We're not talking about United and City here. > Both clubs are in the doldrums of the 4th level or so (VfR below, I > think), See what I mean ? > but have the potential to make it back if they get a decent > management. Like probably many others. Why did he want so badly then to merge them ? Whatever, he must have had his reasons. Well, their views didn't fit with his plans so they parted ways, Hoffenheim went into the BL and fought for the title, they kept their identity and membership rights. ;-) > > I guess I also wouldn't like local interests to mess up with my money > > if I was him. The "plaything" thing could be appropriate if he had > > messed things up himself; once you admit he did the job right it > > doesn't really fit into the picture. > > I didn't say that he did the right thing. I didn't either, I said he did the job right. That's different. > Yes, he brought his village > club into the Bundesliga thanks to overspending and decent Bundesliga > level management - no, he didn't preserve anything about this club. It > lost its identity. It is something else now. I think you're a bit too much into this identity thing. I mean, come on. What was there to loose for a village club founded in or after 72 ? There's clearly no match against what they've already gained and might yet achieve. Sometimes change is good, and if this isn't one of those times I don't know what is.
From: Sven Mischkies on 6 Mar 2010 10:32
FF <FAIRFOOTBALL.COM(a)domainsbyproxy.com> wrote: > Sven Mischkies wrote: > > FF <FAIRFOOTBALL.COM(a)domainsbyproxy.com> wrote: > > > > > > Btw: Hopp didn't intend to bring Hoppenheim up originally. He only > > > > started doing that when the members of VfR Mannheim (who played in the > > > > final round of the German Championshop in the 50s, IIRC) and SV Waldhof > > > > Mannheim (who played Bundesliga in the 80s) rejected his proposition to > > > > merge and become his plaything. > > > > > > Which could also be seen as: stupid club politics were against his > > > good plans of doing a solid thing, so he sent them to hell and did it > > > by himself, with good results. > > > > Stupid politics, like the wish to preserve 100 year old clubs. Like the > > wish to have some influence on club politics and not to give up your > > membership rights. > > Well, you'd have to balance this against the perspective of winning a > title. Both clubs could get where Hoppenheim now is without external help. > > > They probably regretted him afterwards. > > > > Well... VfR and Waldhof are fierce rivals. Imagine someone buying Man > > City and Man United and merging them. > > We're not talking about United and City here. Then talk Notts County and Nottingham Forest or any other 100 year old rivalry of your choice. > > Both clubs are in the doldrums of the 4th level or so (VfR below, I > > think), > > See what I mean ? No. These clubs are down there because they screwed up in the past. They didn't have to go down. > > but have the potential to make it back if they get a decent > > management. > > Like probably many others. There is a 5 digit number of football clubs in Germany. The top league has 18 spots. You do the math. Not everybody can win, but those that do, should do it with their own means. > Why did he want so badly then to merge them ? To get rid of a potentil local rival? > Whatever, he must have > had his reasons. Well, their views didn't fit with his plans so they > parted ways, Hoffenheim went into the BL and fought for the title, They didn't. > they kept their identity and membership rights. ;-) Yes. It is still their club. > > > I guess I also wouldn't like local interests to mess up with my money > > > if I was him. The "plaything" thing could be appropriate if he had > > > messed things up himself; once you admit he did the job right it > > > doesn't really fit into the picture. > > > > I didn't say that he did the right thing. > > I didn't either, I said he did the job right. That's different. Doing a job right and having a plaything doesn't exclude each other. > > Yes, he brought his village > > club into the Bundesliga thanks to overspending and decent Bundesliga > > level management - no, he didn't preserve anything about this club. It > > lost its identity. It is something else now. > > I think you're a bit too much into this identity thing. I mean, come > on. What was there to loose for a village club founded in or after > 72 ? There's clearly no match against what they've already gained and > might yet achieve. Sometimes change is good, and if this isn't one of > those times I don't know what is. Sure, for them it is fun - Bundesliga football in a nearby town, and the club even carries the name of the village. But what about the rest? They are fucked. Ciao, SM -- http://www.gourockviews.co.uk I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting. But it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously. Douglas Adams |